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Punio4 Somewhat Nifty View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, April 02, 2006

guys... you are forgeting about lag... 100 ms is a LOT to me... many will have even more, making this system you are proposing unplayable...

And let's face it... "zwee" fighting is boring... the "zwee" is only good for changing distance to your opponent while confusing him...

As for the ones with higher PL who can see the "zwee", make it that they see the location, as a semi - transparent image of the attacker in advance, since there is always a one second pause betwen "zwee"s

Example...
You are looking at your opponent... and you are stronger... suddenly "zwee!"... if he "zwees" somwhere away from you, you see the afterimage, the blurry movement between the 2 locations, and a beforeimage at the target location...
If he "zwee"s behind, in front, above, or anywhere close for a mle attack, your character automatically locks into the the "beforeimage" as if it was him in real mle... thus, giving you 1 second to react... the ingame speed would be the same... but you could see where he is going in that 1 sec delay Razz

I don't know how the combat itself will work, but this is how I think it could be done...



yes... THIS is what zwee fighting is all about... and I HA TE it

Michel View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, April 02, 2006

Punio4 wrote : guys... you are forgeting about lag... 100 ms is a LOT to me... many will have even more, making this system you are proposing unplayable...

And let's face it... "zwee" fighting rules... the "zwee" is only good for changing distance to your opponent while confusing him...

As for the ones with higher PL who can see the "zwee", make it that they see the location, as a semi - transparent image of the attacker in advance, since there is always a one second pause betwen "zwee"s

Example...
You are looking at your opponent... and you are stronger... suddenly "zwee!"... if he "zwees" somwhere away from you, you see the afterimage, the blurry movement between the 2 locations, and a beforeimage at the target location...
If he "zwee"s behind, in front, above, or anywhere close for a mle attack, your character automatically locks into the the "beforeimage" as if it was him in real mle... thus, giving you 1 second to react... the ingame speed would be the same... but you could see where he is going in that 1 sec delay Razz

I don't know how the combat itself will work, but this is how I think it could be done...



Great! This is what I mean!

TRL Spam Machine View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, April 02, 2006

you're a genius punio! how do you do it?

trotty Owns a Medal View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, April 02, 2006

Great Idea Punio. I didn't think of that, damn Very Happy

Devion Slipping Away View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, April 02, 2006

@TRL and Razma, how about you both be a little more quiet?

Recreating DBZ is gonna be difficult, since every player has his own fighting style.

Goku(up to Saiyan/Namek Saga) preferred ground fights, while Vegeta is used to air-to-air mle.

I'm pretty curious how ZEQ2 will translate the buttons into acutal mle(kick and punch).
Not like, left mouse button is punch and right mouse button is kick ;x

@Punio, I have to disappoint you, but that's not really like the series.
The "zwee" fighting was nothing more then moving REALLY fast. ESF/Budokai serie misunderstood this and made it sort of a teleport.

MS/ping/latency/lag isn't going to be a problem. Even the old ESF Beta 1.0/1.1 based on swoop fighting was playable up to 200ms.(And you could also react in time)

Although a lower ping gives you the obvious advantage of reacting a ten of a second faster, thats with every game. Counter Strike, Diablo 2, Rome Total War, etc all kind of games, from FPS to RPG to RTS, all have the same problem. Slowing the gameplay down would be a bad idea in my opinion.

The only fix is that you get a better internet connection or play vs people who live close to you.

TRL Spam Machine View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, April 02, 2006

Well the internet connection woun't be a problem then I guess since half of the boards are dutchess. I have sin in a dutch moohahahaha!

Punio4 Somewhat Nifty View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, April 02, 2006

Where did I mention the word "teleport"? heck, I even said you could possibly see the character's move-blur...
Since you cannot fight in the true meaning of fighting while moving so fast (remember those random impact shockwaves appearing out of nowhere, while being observed from other people's point of view?), the only solution would be to add a budokai style minigame with a fancy animation Confused
When we are seeing the fight from the fighter's perspective, we actually see the punches and the kicks landing... in REAL time... Thus, this cannot be recreated in a more than a single player game, because of the time continuum Razz
If you wish, you can save a replay of the match, and set your PL as an observer XD

No, really... Zanzoken, also known as über fast moving, which looks like a teleport, and fighting while using it cannot be done like realtime fighting because:


    your eyes
    your fingers
    your internet connection



CANNOT react that fast... the only way to implement it is to simulate the outcome via some normal paced mini game... hyper dimension had button mashing, budokai had "guess what I pressed" or "break them analogs" and esf had a "try to repeat what I pressed" but didn't have the >speed of light fighting, it looked like a really slow fight...

We have 2 types of superfast moving... one is for changing our distance, the one I described... and the other one is when multiple fighters engage in a hyper speed battle... frankly, the same, but with both of them punching and kicking while moving at that speed...

I gave my point of view on the moving implementation... on the zanzoken fights... I really don't know of a non-intellectually lacking way of implementing it...

TRL Spam Machine View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, April 02, 2006

well I have an idea

it is possible to see different player models over an internet game. I mean like for example the adding of custom models in esf. Other players don't see that you have them. Couldn't this thing be used to like trick the other or lower pl people or even the ones that aren't paying attention with their mind into seeing just shock waves intstead of the actual fight. Come to think of it I think zeq2 already had this nifty plan. Well add another useless post to the list then Wink

Punio4 Somewhat Nifty View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, April 02, 2006

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanzoken#Zanz.C5.8Dken

lookup zanzoken... in DB it leaves an image, in DBZ it usually leaves those vertical lines...
Noone has ever moved like this for a long period of time, used it like normal moving, or changed directions... hence, it's an ability, not just default movespeed.
It was a straightforward, relatively short-distance move from point A to point B.
When someone is moving really fast, he is usually flying with the aura visible...

As for the shockwave fights... there are 3 types:

-you see two fast moving dots colliding, resulting in a shockwave, distancing, then colliding again...
-there are just shockwaves emerging from the same spot, because they are not moving(like the collision in budokai 3)
-you see a "zwee", then a shockwave, "then another "zwee" followed by another shockwave etc...

I don't really know how I would categorize these ingame, because they obviously aren't made to make sense, but to add diversity in the eye candy (if you can call it that... Confused )

TRL Spam Machine View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, April 02, 2006

to add to the list you also have the powerstruggle one where wind starts blowing and the energy around the area is rising. Maybe some kind of blur effect to simulate heat waves could be used for that.

On the note of zanzoken issue, punio has a point.
And I have an idea. Anyone played supersonic warriors?
I would make it a short dash like in that game maybe induced by a quick double hit of the direction key. Now for the nifty part! If you hold the second tap the character keeps going and works up an aura and practically goes into superspeed mode gradually. You could use the same mechanism for running on the ground. First a quick leap over the ground and then when they land they start running.

RiO View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Monday, April 03, 2006

Devion wrote : @Punio, I have to disappoint you, but that's not really like the series.
The "zwee" fighting was nothing more then moving REALLY fast. ESF/Budokai serie misunderstood this and made it sort of a teleport.

Super Snake wrote : I don't get it. There was never any teleport in the series right? I thought it was all high speed flight that was to fast for the eye to see. Wich apeard like teleport.

You both are correct.

Punio4 wrote : Noone has ever moved like this for a long period of time, used it like normal moving, or changed directions... hence, it's an ability, not just default movespeed.
It was a straightforward, relatively short-distance move from point A to point B.
When someone is moving really fast, he is usually flying with the aura visible...

Yep. It is indeed just a temporary 'speed boost' kind of move, not something that's constantly in use. as far as I know 'seeing' the fighters move is actually based on one's sensing skill than on one's own PL or speed.

Razma wrote : Would be hard to get into a game though,I mean this high speed which was actually used in DBZ.

Super Snake wrote : So if there was a way to just make it seem for other players that you teleported but for you that you flew at super speed...

Says who? Razz

Punio4 wrote : As for the shockwave fights... there are 3 types:

-you see two fast moving dots colliding, resulting in a shockwave, distancing, then colliding again...
-there are just shockwaves emerging from the same spot, because they are not moving(like the collision in budokai 3)
-you see a "zwee", then a shockwave, "then another "zwee" followed by another shockwave etc...

I don't really know how I would categorize these ingame, because they obviously aren't made to make sense, but to add diversity in the eye candy (if you can call it that... Confused )

- Two fighters flying or dashing towards each other and both execute a 'swooping' mle attack at the same time, the shockwave backlash seperates them and then they dive for each other again.
- It makes absolutely no sense for the fighters to be using Zanzoken in this instance, so I assume you mean they're both visible and sort of performing the mle version of a power struggle.
- Same as the first case, only using Zanzoken movement instead of regular movement.

See, they can be translated into game terms just fine. Razz

Punio4 Somewhat Nifty View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Monday, April 03, 2006

RiO wrote :
- It makes absolutely no sense for the fighters to be using Zanzoken in this instance, so I assume you mean they're both visible and sort of performing the mle version of a power struggle.
See, they can be translated into game terms just fine. Razz



Yup, and as for the 2 moving dots I know that's swooping Razz Just made a list of things where shockwaves appear.

So to sum it up, the Zanzoken is moving extremely fast, but with the looks, and effects of a short distance teleport.
RiO, can we hear your view on the implementation?

Michel View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Monday, April 03, 2006

Nice discussion going on here mates! Keep up the good work! Personally, I think it is best to simulate zanzoken, by only rendering some parts of the model. Also adding some motion blur and lines perhaps.

Zanzoken should in my opinion occur when there is a player stronger then another. But if two players are of the same strength, you will never see zanzoken, and I think that's a pity as zanzoken is nice! So I think zanzoken should also occur when you partially see a player. For example while turning your head so that you can look to your opponent, this opponent moves towards/hits/kicks you in a zanzoken way, but zanzoken will disappear slowly into normal movement when you get a bigger percentage of your opponent in screen. This way... while turning... you see you opponent move really fast, but while turning it will look as if he slows down. Ofcourse you won't see any zanzoken if a player is heading straight to you while being in the middle of the screen!

MDave ZEQ2 Ninja View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Monday, April 03, 2006

I really like the zanzoken currently used in zeq2 right now Smile

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