ZEQ2 Lite

Wednesday, December 26, 2012

So, as I suppose everyone in this community, I feel like fumbling around with Lite to see if I can do anything. I also have several complete ideas in my head, but I'd like to get some help from the ones who worked on Lite before(Dave, Brad, Arnold, and the others) in deciding if these are possible at all.

So, here's the list:

1. Make all damage and defense powerlevel dependent (I.E. Final Flash will have a higher base damage than Kamehameha, but if for example Vegeta has only 3K power level and Goku has 15000, then it won't do any damage).

2. Make players get powerlevel from taking OR dealing damage

3. Disable healing, instead re-setting health after every battle

4.Give players more health and more stamina, along with stamina recharging AND getting used slower

5. Make the "one-frame" animations more fluid I.E. mêlée heavy hit charge, Soar, etc along with making new jump animations

6. Fix the twitchy nature of current animations

7. Save powerlevel in an account-like system which would remember player name, IP and character?

8. Re-design Zanzoken so it constantly takes stamina, allows totally free movement, allows attacks to be charged and stops the enemy's lockon for 2 seconds(+ longer based on power level)

9. Make a proper power clash system like in Public Beta 1 so we can have nice beam struggles

Wednesday, December 26, 2012

1. Make all damage and defense powerlevel dependent (I.E. Final Flash will have a higher base damage than Kamehameha, but if for example Vegeta has only 3K power level and Goku has 15000, then it won't do any damage).

PM_BurnPowerLevel in bg_pmove.c

This is already similar to how the system is/was. I could have forgotten a few details, but as far as I can remember in Public Beta 1, your defensive measure was based on your overall maximum power level along with your tiers defensive scalars for energy/mêlée attacks. This defensive scale is further offset by things like if you are on the ground, blocking, using a ball flip, or walking.

In newer versions, I believe this was switched to rely on your overall fatigue level rather than maximum to make you more susceptible when exhausted. Additionally, some attack configs (not all) may have been adjusted to a lower base damage to make way for a newer defense system that was not implemented which relied on a defensive pool that recovered quickly.

The defensive pool design was in place so things like weak pummeling attacks (like an energy storm) would have little effect at first, but gradually peel off your defense entirely and leave you open to larger attacks.

2. Make players get powerlevel from taking OR dealing damage

Not a good idea. Even it was fractionally set, characters like Goku or Piccolo would top out almost immediately when landing a Spirit Bomb or special beam cannon based on the damage dealt. If you scaled this down to be a much lower ratio/gain, then minor attacks would never give any power level at all.

You'd need an additional phys variable for handling this properly to determine how much power level was gained from landing an attack (based on percent of damage done), but I'd still recommend it be a server-side option for toggle as it may simply encourage long-distance sniping wars to become a powerhouse.

3. Disable healing, instead re-setting health after every battle

Are you referring to overhealing -- the process of recovering some of the damage dealt by powering up over your limit? Although this was changed in later revisions to be limited to a fraction of damage taken, it does still exist to a point.

I do believe it was set to be toggleable on a per-tier level and SHOULD have had a cvar created as well to toggle it on/off server-side as an option.

What do you mean by resetting it every battle? Please don't tell me you are suggesting that ridiculous "magic regeneration" health concept you see in other modern first person shooters.

4.Give players more health and more stamina, along with stamina recharging AND getting used slower

The concept of fatigue has changed in more recent revisions to have it restore much MUCH slowly when you are at lower values. What is the purpose of having more "health"? There is no literal health value in ZEQ2-lite. There is simply damage done in relation to your maximum power level.

5. Make the "one-frame" animations more fluid I.E. mêlée heavy hit charge, Soar, etc along with making new jump animations

How do propose one-frame be made more fluid? You'd need to add more frames or adjust Quake 3's vertex lerping code engine-side to resolve this. The former would be easier.

6. Fix the twitchy nature of current animations

Same answer as 5.

7. Save powerlevel in an account-like system which would remember player name, IP and character?

IP addresses change. Storing by character and player name would not be a reliable way of handling this. A much more ideal system would involve a username/password system. You have a few options in terms of implementation.

A local database system would entail linking and using something like SQLite to manage a database on the server's machine. You'll need some knowledge of using SQL queries and linking/extending the Quake 3 engines with additional libraries (as well as creating trap calls for the mod source) for this route.

A remote database system would entail using the existing cURL library and calling a particular URL to send/receive user data. This was already partially implemented and may be your best route in terms of reliability, but will still require implementation of username authentication, registering, updating, and so forth on the server in question (usually handled through a server-side scripting language such as PHP, ASP, Python, etc).

8. Re-design Zanzoken so it constantly takes stamina, allows totally free movement, allows attacks to be charged and stops the enemy's lockon for 2 seconds(+ longer based on power level)

I believe the newer iteration of Zanzoken actually is a constant drain as opposed to an upfront cost and does break enemy's lockon while you are no longer visible. The later revisions should have it so any vision interruption will put the lockon in a search state before finally ending it if not re-attained.

Attacks should be able to maintain a charge still while using zanzoken, but indeed may not be fired until the character is once again visible.

Zanzoken is currently designed for designed for extremely fast point A to point B movements. Allowing it to move 360 degrees without restraint would make it absolutely no different than boosted flight in terms of feel/control. This could be done, but I'd again suggest it be a server-side option due to its removal of uniquity.

9. Make a proper power clash system like in Public Beta 1 so we can have nice beam struggles

There really was no such system in Public Beta 1. Sure, attacks could collide, but the players had very limited options in terms of what kind of input and impact they could have on it. A more robust power struggle system was always planned, but was never implemented. It involving multiple types of series-complimentary struggle input such as streamed, bursted, and charged -- each with pros/con strategically to win the scenario.

Wednesday, December 26, 2012

Zeth wrote :

1. Make all damage and defense powerlevel dependent (I.E. Final Flash will have a higher base damage than Kamehameha, but if for example Vegeta has only 3K power level and Goku has 15000, then it won't do any damage).

PM_BurnPowerLevel in bg_pmove.c

This is already similar to how the system is/was. I could have forgotten a few details, but as far as I can remember in Public Beta 1, your defensive measure was based on your overall maximum power level along with your tiers defensive scalars for energy/mêlée attacks. This defensive scale is further offset by things like if you are on the ground, blocking, using a ball flip, or walking.

In newer versions, I believe this was switched to rely on your overall fatigue level rather than maximum to make you more susceptible when exhausted. Additionally, some attack configs (not all) may have been adjusted to a lower base damage to make way for a newer defense system that was not implemented which relied on a defensive pool that recovered quickly.

The defensive pool design was in place so things like weak pummeling attacks (like an energy storm) would have little effect at first, but gradually peel off your defense entirely and leave you open to larger attacks.

2. Make players get powerlevel from taking OR dealing damage

Not a good idea. Even it was fractionally set, characters like Goku or Piccolo would top out almost immediately when landing a Spirit Bomb or special beam cannon based on the damage dealt. If you scaled this down to be a much lower ratio/gain, then minor attacks would never give any power level at all.

You'd need an additional phys variable for handling this properly to determine how much power level was gained from landing an attack (based on percent of damage done), but I'd still recommend it be a server-side option for toggle as it may simply encourage long-distance sniping wars to become a powerhouse.

3. Disable healing, instead re-setting health after every battle

Are you referring to overhealing -- the process of recovering some of the damage dealt by powering up over your limit? Although this was changed in later revisions to be limited to a fraction of damage taken, it does still exist to a point.

I do believe it was set to be toggleable on a per-tier level and SHOULD have had a cvar created as well to toggle it on/off server-side as an option.

What do you mean by resetting it every battle? Please don't tell me you are suggesting that ridiculous "magic regeneration" health concept you see in other modern first person shooters.

4.Give players more health and more stamina, along with stamina recharging AND getting used slower

The concept of fatigue has changed in more recent revisions to have it restore much MUCH slowly when you are at lower values. What is the purpose of having more "health"? There is no literal health value in ZEQ2-lite. There is simply damage done in relation to your maximum power level.

5. Make the "one-frame" animations more fluid I.E. mêlée heavy hit charge, Soar, etc along with making new jump animations

How do propose one-frame be made more fluid? You'd need to add more frames or adjust Quake 3's vertex lerping code engine-side to resolve this. The former would be easier.

6. Fix the twitchy nature of current animations

Same answer as 5.

7. Save powerlevel in an account-like system which would remember player name, IP and character?

IP addresses change. Storing by character and player name would not be a reliable way of handling this. A much more ideal system would involve a username/password system. You have a few options in terms of implementation.

A local database system would entail linking and using something like SQLite to manage a database on the server's machine. You'll need some knowledge of using SQL queries and linking/extending the Quake 3 engines with additional libraries (as well as creating trap calls for the mod source) for this route.

A remote database system would entail using the existing cURL library and calling a particular URL to send/receive user data. This was already partially implemented and may be your best route in terms of reliability, but will still require implementation of username authentication, registering, updating, and so forth on the server in question (usually handled through a server-side scripting language such as PHP, ASP, Python, etc).

8. Re-design Zanzoken so it constantly takes stamina, allows totally free movement, allows attacks to be charged and stops the enemy's lockon for 2 seconds(+ longer based on power level)

I believe the newer iteration of Zanzoken actually is a constant drain as opposed to an upfront cost and does break enemy's lockon while you are no longer visible. The later revisions should have it so any vision interruption will put the lockon in a search state before finally ending it if not re-attained.

Attacks should be able to maintain a charge still while using zanzoken, but indeed may not be fired until the character is once again visible.

Zanzoken is currently designed for designed for extremely fast point A to point B movements. Allowing it to move 360 degrees without restraint would make it absolutely no different than boosted flight in terms of feel/control. This could be done, but I'd again suggest it be a server-side option due to its removal of uniquity.

9. Make a proper power clash system like in Public Beta 1 so we can have nice beam struggles

There really was no such system in Public Beta 1. Sure, attacks could collide, but the players had very limited options in terms of what kind of input and impact they could have on it. A more robust power struggle system was always planned, but was never implemented. It involving multiple types of series-complimentary struggle input such as streamed, bursted, and charged -- each with pros/con strategically to win the scenario.

1. What I actually meant was: Remove tier-specific scalars. Make transforming multiply your actual powerlevel, and make attacks do damage based on that. I.E. Going Super Saiyan at 10K would result in 500K, Effectively making you fifty times stronger-like it happens in the series. This'd also require removin the 32767 limit, though.



2. Restrict it to mêlée attacks?



3. What I mean is, if an enemy dies(possibly verifying if you've beaten them almost completely alone), refill your health. It's not an accurate solution, but a skilled enough player should be able to stay alive forever by healing SOME way.


4. What I meant was, that in ZEQ2 Lite, charging a single Kamehameha wave seems to take ~25% of your stamina, which proceeds to refill in 3 seconds. In Dragon Ball Z, fighters seem to lose their stamina gradually over the fight, and it seems to recover a lot slower than in-game. Going by my Kamehameha example, it seems to take way less than 25% of Goku's stamina unless he charges it a LOT on purpose. Another example would be Speed mêlée. In the series, they barely get tired from it. In-game, a dodging opponent can reduce your stamina to zero in 5 seconds - Only for it to refill in 5 seconds again(apparently this'd take longer in newer revisions?)


7. Giving up on this one

8. I do see the reasoning there. In the series however, characters often disappear for multiple seconds then re-appear at a location close by - usually behind the enemy's back. It looks like to me, that they can move around and stop freely even while in the zanzoken state.

9. What I meant was something more complex than "Person with 1 more powerlevel wins the beam struggle no matter what".

Wednesday, December 26, 2012

Maszek wrote : So, as I suppose everyone in this community, I feel like fumbling around with Lite to see if I can do anything. I also have several complete ideas in my head, but I'd like to get some help from the ones who worked on Lite before(Dave, Brad, Arnold, and the others) in deciding if these are possible at all.

So, here's the list:

1. Make all damage and defense powerlevel dependent (I.E. Final Flash will have a higher base damage than Kamehameha, but if for example Vegeta has only 3K power level and Goku has 15000, then it won't do any damage).

2. Make players get powerlevel from taking OR dealing damage

3. Disable healing, instead re-setting health after every battle

4.Give players more health and more stamina, along with stamina recharging AND getting used slower

5. Make the "one-frame" animations more fluid I.E. mêlée heavy hit charge, Soar, etc along with making new jump animations

6. Fix the twitchy nature of current animations

7. Save powerlevel in an account-like system which would remember player name, IP and character?

8. Re-design Zanzoken so it constantly takes stamina, allows totally free movement, allows attacks to be charged and stops the enemy's lockon for 2 seconds(+ longer based on power level)

9. Make a proper power clash system like in Public Beta 1 so we can have nice beam struggles

nice ideas dude! even Earth Special Forces also done something like this. you're ideas can make it more real like Dragon Ball Z.

Monday, December 31, 2012

Maszek wrote :
1. What I actually meant was: Remove tier-specific scalars. Make transforming multiply your actual powerlevel, and make attacks do damage based on that. I.E. Going Super Saiyan at 10K would result in 500K, Effectively making you fifty times stronger-like it happens in the series. This'd also require removin the 32767 limit, though.

Removing the 32767 limit would require changing the way that powerlevels are calculated, as currently that is the hard coded limit in the way it is calculated. Numbers higher than that, or lower than -32767 can't exist in this calculation format, and would result in errors. A different calculation format would need to be used, and thus much recoding to change this.

Edit: Brad could better explain this than I could. Basically, it's something with the way the code works and how memory is allocated, but I can't remember all the specifics, just that it can't be easily done with the way the engine is setup currently.
/Edit

3. What I mean is, if an enemy dies(possibly verifying if you've beaten them almost completely alone), refill your health. It's not an accurate solution, but a skilled enough player should be able to stay alive forever by healing SOME way.

Yet it doesn't make sense from an intrinsic perspective. If you wish to heal your character, there are 3 avenues you should be able to make use of, however only 1 exists in ZEQ2-Lite currently.

First, there's regenerative abilities innate in an individual, I.e. Namekian regenerative abilities. This can already be done through tier settings.

Second, there's powers/abilities which allows one person to heal another, for example Dende's powers to heal people.

Third, would be the use of healing items, such as Sensu Beans. Items currently don't work/exist though.

There's a fourth option as well, although there really isn't an intrinsic example of it, which is a character's ability to heal themselves on command, which can be done using the .phys files for a character's attacks. I was able to make a "heal" and a "restore power" type of ability when I was working on Shenku simply by applying negative values to health under the attack's costs:

I don't recall any characters who were able to heal on command though, aside from Piccolo regenerating his arm twice. Otherwise though, Piccolo's regeneration was simply a passive effect.

8. I do see the reasoning there. In the series however, characters often disappear for multiple seconds then re-appear at a location close by - usually behind the enemy's back. It looks like to me, that they can move around and stop freely even while in the zanzoken state.

If you pay attention during several of the fights in the early parts of the series(Saiyan saga through to the end of the Frieza saga), characters who used Zanzoken techniques would move only short distances, and usually make multiple jumps before reaching their destination. Any instance in which a character seems to go in a curve to end up behind someone, what's really happening is the same, they're just doing the multiple Zanzokens faster so it appears to be only one jump. Often, the other character's simply don't notice the other jumps, so it's not shown in the series.

In essence, Brad is right. Zanzoken is a burst of intense movement in a single direction, which is why you shouldn't be able to turn and move about freely.

Apologies in advance if my understanding of the following concepts are off some, it's been a few months since my last physics class in school, and I was never much of a scientist anyways... Using the concepts of physics, the faster something is moving in a single direction, the more "weight" it has going in that direction(An object in motion, wants to stay in motion, because it's mass carries it once momentum is greater than the resistances, typically being gravity and wind resistance. Basically, inertia.).

Now imagine that Goku is moving fast enough in one direction that his "weight" is equivalent to that of a Freight Train. Now explain to me why a something moving like a Freight Train has the nimble dexterity to turn on a dime at full speed without derailing and crashing into a wall for its effort? Just because the characters are able to stop on a dime(basically by doing a full reverse thrust on their speed to stop at their chosen destination), doesn't mean they can turn on one at such a speed without a brief pause, and hence, multiple Zanzokens. If you go left, then right, there will undoubtedly be a point at which your speed is at 0 because of this reverse in speed, and thus you're not moving anymore to be imperceptible to people around you.

Sorry if that explanation made anyone's brains hurt. Mine hurt just trying to explain it...

Monday, December 31, 2012

Shenku wrote :

Sorry if that explanation made anyone's brains hurt. Mine hurt just trying to explain it...

For the powerlevel limit: I am aware it would require some recoding, but ultimately it would end up with clearer and more accurate math regarding attack power. Of course, this can be done in ZEQ2 instead, like many other planned features.


For the healing: I understand that some characters(mostly Namekians) have that regeneration ability, but how about people like Goku or Frieza?


For the zanzoken: I don't think Toriyama actually thought about it in even HALF the detail you did It's an anime with superheroes who turn into giant apes.

Monday, December 31, 2012

great idea maszek totally agree with you

and we defanately need an account system

Monday, December 31, 2012

I understood you perfectly, Shenku. Makes sense to me.

One way Goku or Frieza or other inherently non-regenerative characters could get some health back would be transforming to the next level. In a way, this is already in ZEQ2-Lite. You increase your power level when you transform, so basically it takes a ton of more damage to put you down for good.

This is balanced, though, in that you still retain the same amount of percentage of stamina/health/fatigue left. But again, all those attributes are increased because your overall stats are higher in defense and offense. In addition, further balance is put in place for differently scaled costs for attacks and abilities, which also depends on how high you adjust your power level.

Also, regarding the Zanzoken ability, Shenku totally has the right idea. However, I would like to add that in order for someone to Zanzoken behind his opponent, he does need to exit Zanzoken for a little to adjust the direction. If done right, you can Zanzoken from in front of your enemy to the side, above, or below and additional Zanzoken to the rear of the opponent if you choose to. The closer you would get to your opponent, the less you need to exit Zanzoken, or else they will spot your movement. So you need to adjust your direction early if you want to catch a baddie by surprise.

Monday, December 31, 2012

Linkxp500 wrote : I understood you perfectly, Shenku. Makes sense to me.

One way Goku or Frieza or other inherently non-regenerative characters could get some health back would be transforming to the next level. In a way, this is already in ZEQ2-Lite. You increase your power level when you transform, so basically it takes a ton of more damage to put you down for good.

This is balanced, though, in that you still retain the same amount of percentage of stamina/health/fatigue left. But again, all those attributes are increased because your overall stats are higher in defense and offense. In addition, further balance is put in place for differently scaled costs for attacks and abilities, which also depends on how high you adjust your power level.

Also, regarding the Zanzoken ability, Shenku totally has the right idea. However, I would like to add that in order for someone to Zanzoken behind his opponent, he does need to exit Zanzoken for a little to adjust the direction. If done right, you can Zanzoken from in front of your enemy to the side, above, or below and additional Zanzoken to the rear of the opponent if you choose to. The closer you would get to your opponent, the less you need to exit Zanzoken, or else they will spot your movement. So you need to adjust your direction early if you want to catch a baddie by surprise.

Don't even bring up Super Saiyan and other transformations.

It's one thing that they aren't even remotely accurate in power in ZEQ2 Lite(Series: 50x modifier to everything Lite: +50% to everything).

It's another thing that they aren't balanced either. Character with more transformations instantly wins any battle ever.

Monday, December 31, 2012

Maszek wrote : ]
Don't even bring up Super Saiyan and other transformations.

It's one thing that they aren't even remotely accurate in power in ZEQ2 Lite(Series: 50x modifier to everything Lite: +50% to everything).

Where is this "50x" coming from? I don't recall it being mentioned in the series, so that number itself is also inaccurate.

Monday, December 31, 2012

Shenku wrote :

Maszek wrote : ]
Don't even bring up Super Saiyan and other transformations.

It's one thing that they aren't even remotely accurate in power in ZEQ2 Lite(Series: 50x modifier to everything Lite: +50% to everything).

Where is this "50x" coming from? I don't recall it being mentioned in the series, so that number itself is also inaccurate.

It depends on whether or not you take the Daizenshuu(Dragon Ball Z guidebooks) as a source of accurate information.

Even if not, the series hints at extreme power increase. Frieza devastates Goku with 1% of his maximum power, no? Goku transforms and starts holding his own againts the tyrant, even overpowering him. So it hints at MUCH MORE than an 50% increase.

Monday, December 31, 2012

Well... If you have skill... With that idea about the 2 second disappearance act with the Zanzoken you could love somebody up wit that... I mean you don't even need beams with it. Just punch him a bit and zanzoken away then fly towards him from the back and ram him...(Meant to be weird) Then drop him down to the ground. Zanzoken away and watch him get up and make sure he doesn't turn your way. Easy murk right there.

Monday, December 31, 2012

I was wandering about the account thing as well. How about you have to save it to your email and nickname and save it or something. Is it possible to link this site with the Game?
Is it also possible to do what the IRC does? Where you have to identify? Password and you have to ask Moderators about changing other things on it like link other names.

Tuesday, January 01, 2013

Maszek wrote :

Shenku wrote :

Maszek wrote : ]
Don't even bring up Super Saiyan and other transformations.

It's one thing that they aren't even remotely accurate in power in ZEQ2 Lite(Series: 50x modifier to everything Lite: +50% to everything).

Where is this "50x" coming from? I don't recall it being mentioned in the series, so that number itself is also inaccurate.

It depends on whether or not you take the Daizenshuu(Dragon Ball Z guidebooks) as a source of accurate information.

Even if not, the series hints at extreme power increase. Frieza devastates Goku with 1% of his maximum power, no? Goku transforms and starts holding his own againts the tyrant, even overpowering him. So it hints at MUCH MORE than an 50% increase.

As I said, ZEQ2-lite uses intrinsic knowledge, or in other words, only the events in the series, nothing from outside of it.

And you are incorrect. Goku was a near even match for Frieza at 1%, it wasn't until Frieza went up to 50% that Frieza became too difficult to fight. Likewise when Goku transformed, he suddenly was too much for Frieza. This kind of "jump" happened many times in the series, but that doesn't mean that the characters power is being multiplied by that much.

Figure frieza's boast in his second form that that form is about 1 million is close to accurate, and figure his final form at 1% is about three times higher(rough estimate based on the number of forms and figuring that each lower form he assumes possibly divides his power.). Now figure Goku's power level is around that same point, so about 2-3 million. Figure 3 million. Now multiply that by 50, and you're looking at 150 million... Somehow that high a power level sounds off for this early in the series...

And remember, 50% and 50x is two completely different mathematical equations...

Tuesday, January 01, 2013

Shenku wrote :

Maszek wrote :

Shenku wrote :

Maszek wrote : ]
Don't even bring up Super Saiyan and other transformations.

It's one thing that they aren't even remotely accurate in power in ZEQ2 Lite(Series: 50x modifier to everything Lite: +50% to everything).

Where is this "50x" coming from? I don't recall it being mentioned in the series, so that number itself is also inaccurate.

It depends on whether or not you take the Daizenshuu(Dragon Ball Z guidebooks) as a source of accurate information.

Even if not, the series hints at extreme power increase. Frieza devastates Goku with 1% of his maximum power, no? Goku transforms and starts holding his own againts the tyrant, even overpowering him. So it hints at MUCH MORE than an 50% increase.

As I said, ZEQ2-lite uses intrinsic knowledge, or in other words, only the events in the series, nothing from outside of it.

And you are incorrect. Goku was a near even match for Frieza at 1%, it wasn't until Frieza went up to 50% that Frieza became too difficult to fight. Likewise when Goku transformed, he suddenly was too much for Frieza. This kind of "jump" happened many times in the series, but that doesn't mean that the characters power is being multiplied by that much.

Figure frieza's boast in his second form that that form is about 1 million is close to accurate, and figure his final form at 1% is about three times higher(rough estimate based on the number of forms and figuring that each lower form he assumes possibly divides his power.). Now figure Goku's power level is around that same point, so about 2-3 million. Figure 3 million. Now multiply that by 50, and you're looking at 150 million... Somehow that high a power level sounds off for this early in the series...

And remember, 50% and 50x is two completely different mathematical equations...

Well, the guidebook everyone refuses to trust says Goku had 300 mil at Super Saiyan.

Anyway, I still don't see how your post cancels out mine.

Also, if a character can suddenly beat another character, then yes, that means that said character's power level is high enough to do it. On that note, we can argue about exact multipliers all day, but Lite still got it wrong in the end.

1. Goku can't turn Super Saiyan 3 with a powerlevel of 32K.

2. Super Saiyan 2 isn't a 2248x multiplier(which is what it is in Lite)

And many other things.