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New Dragonball anime to debut in July

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Zeth The Admin View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, May 08, 2015

One Piece characters yell out most of their attacks, they are at least a bit more grounded in reality


I realize you were being facetious with this remark, but I just wanted to bring up a question. Why is everyone SO adamant in applying realistic practices to something so obviously stylized and in a fictional, fantasy setting? It's done in popular culture to point of ridiculum. It doesn't take a half-step online to find an article or "scientific breakdown" boasting how it has determined so many realistic missteps a movie, book, or game has taken.

Even relative to Dragon Ball Z, you can take something like the ScrewAttack's "Superman vs. Goku". We have two characters enriched in their own fantastic worlds with unique physics, rules, and standards; yet the comparisons that ensue are purely extrinsic -- basing nearly EVERYTHING on how it would measure in our real-world metrics.

The entire frickin' purpose of fiction rooted in fantasy is to serve as a stark separation from our reality. It is to push the mind into a world where the impossible becomes possible -- where the rules governing our world don't apply. It just seems so awfully backwards to try and forcefully thrust our world's handling back to them.

DBZkrisfhugz View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, May 08, 2015

Zielan wrote : I guess what Kris is trying to convey is that even though One Piece characters yell out most of their attacks, they are at least a bit more grounded in reality (Yeah, certainly very realistic Razz).

He's trying to convey that most of the attacks aren't just throw away attacks that will always work on every enemy, since some of them are immune to say physical damage, getting burnt and that sort of thing.
They often have very tactical reasoning behind their usage.

There's a sort of Pokemon like dynamic to techniques in One Piece. Some of them are effective, some are not effective and some can even cancel each other out.

I gotta say though that as the series progressed we started to see less and less of regular brawler fights and more of a technique spam. (it can be attributed to the fact they they travel further and further into more dangerous areas, where some of the techniques are required to even attack. The three "Haki" would be a good example of that [they are required to even do any sort of damage to certain type of devil fruit users that are tied to elemental powers that make them seemingly invincible as they can fully change into the element they control example] .

It has never been completely removed though.
https://youtu.be/11bb9VRrbo0?t=51

Although there is one thing One Piece will always have over Dragon Ball Z.
Characters never get obsolete.
While in Dragon Ball Z, some characters become simple punching bags after Frieza saga.
One Piece always tries to drive the point that the One Piece protagonist roster is a team, they make several plot points where the group gets separated or pitted against each other, which REALLY cripples their abilities.
While Luffy (the main character) is definitively the strongest of them, they make the point almost ad nauseam that he cannot do well without the support/help of his friends.

Meanwhile Krillin/Tenshinhan/Yamucha/Vegeta are almost always just stages for the villain to get to Goku.

This is not a defense of One Piece in anyway though, there is no way to escape the fact that it's just a power fantasy Shonen manga/anime that lacks any real sophistication. It's lacking, but that's part of the fun.



Thank you Zielan. I should've explained this earlier


That's why One Piece should Teach Akira.. is Akira still alive though?

One piece is about strategy.
Here what HAKI means https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3bWM-AuO4k

if you understood what HAKI means.. then you will understand how Luffy Defeated this Robot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BziEKjRs6ho

and here is the Best Haki of all https://youtu.be/RYdY-7thd94

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, May 08, 2015

DBZkrisfhugz wrote :
if you understood what HAKI means..



Sounds like a rewording of basic energy manipulation/sensing from Dragonball and Dragonball Z, making them sound more alike than different. Rayleigh's chat with Luffy sounds vaguely similar to Piccolo teaching Gohan to sense the Z-fighters' movements against the Saibamen.

*edit* I grasp that both sources draw their concepts from the concept of Chi, I get that. It just lends itself as more of a comparison to Dragon Ball Z than a departure from it.

DBZkrisfhugz View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, May 08, 2015

Skatter wrote :

Sounds like a rewording of basic energy manipulation/sensing from Dragonball and Dragonball Z, making them sound more alike than different. Rayleigh's chat with Luffy sounds vaguely similar to Piccolo teaching Gohan to sense the Z-fighters' movements against the Saibamen.



That is just one part of the meaning, That's not it..
you are talking about Observation Haki.. there are two more types of Haki.

1. Observation Haki = Can sense Movement. Can hear Voice. Can see your Aura

2. Armament Haki = Can Harden your Body as Defend. Can add Aura in your Attacks. Can manipulate Attacks.

3. Conqueror's Haki = Can make a person unconscious. Can control Animal. Can ??. Can ??.

These Haki are the Weakness of Devil Fruit Users. But if The Devil Fruit Users can use Haki too.. it will be the matter of Strategy.

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, May 08, 2015

So the sense Haki is akin to how the Dragon Ball Z characters learn to sense others' power level.

The toughness one relates to how much more durable the bodies of the Z fighters have become, like Goku's being able to handle such intense gravity(one could argue that this is due to his alien physiology)- and most ludicrously how Goku was able to "swordfight" using his finger.

And Chaiotzu's command of psychic domination over people would be the closest thing I could think of to relate to the third, but even then, it's not a huge stretch-I will give you that Chiaotzu did not exert these powers in Dragon Ball Z, but in Dragonball. Yamucha's direct control over his spirit ball energy and the ability to precisely maneuver it was shown, however-granted it's not direct.

It still serves to create similarity that should stem some mutual appreciation rather than an attempt to prove which is better Razz

Zielan KoRnified View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, May 08, 2015

Skatter wrote :
*edit* I grasp that both sources draw their concepts from the concept of Chi, I get that. It just lends itself as more of a comparison to Dragon Ball Z than a departure from it.



Haki is essentially the most Dragon Ball Z thing about One Piece.

kriseatspugs wrote :
1. Observation Haki = Can sense Movement. Can hear Voice. Can see your Aura

2. Armament Haki = Can Harden your Body as Defend. Can add Aura in your Attacks. Can manipulate Attacks.

3. Conqueror's Haki = Can make a person unconscious. Can control Animal. Can ??. Can ??.



1. Sensing aura/ki.

2.


3. This one didn't really appear in Dragon Ball Z, but it certainly did in Bleach, so it's really not an exclusive concept.

Edit : Looks like Skatter posted at the same time as I did, bringing up pretty much the same points.

It's all escapism, and if there are similarities, it's never demeaning to any party.

DBZkrisfhugz View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, May 08, 2015

Well.. yeah, you can put it that way.

but the differences is.. Dragon Ball Z just Throwing Ki and do attacks that we can't see. it's all matter of Leveling Up into another level of Super Saiyan. Which is Boring.

Dragon Ball Z be like...

There is Enemy from another planet and came in earth. BAM. New level of Super Saiyan. Defeat the Enemy.

It's always the same..

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, May 08, 2015

DBZkrisfhugz wrote : Dragon Ball Z just Throwing Ki and do attacks that we can't see. it's all matter of Leveling Up into another level of Super Saiyan



I don't disagree that Dragon Ball Z was much more creatively shallow as it went on-and I think Dragonball was far more enjoyable to watch than Dragon Ball Z for that reason, but One Piece isn't over yet-it may very well become just as shallow, given that if you try, you can boil down Luffy's gears to Super Saiyan levels. It does NOT do them justice, but a comparison CAN be drawn, no matter how simplistic.

I'll quote Zielan here:

Zielan wrote : there is no way to escape the fact that it's just a power fantasy Shonen manga/anime that lacks any real sophistication. It's lacking, but that's part of the fun.

DBZkrisfhugz View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, May 08, 2015

kriseatpugs. . .

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, May 08, 2015

DBZkrisfhugz wrote : kriseatpugs. . .



Not quite sure what to say to that.

Zeth wrote : Why is everyone SO adamant in applying realistic practices to something so obviously stylized and in a fictional, fantasy setting?



Honestly the spirit of the greater amount of conversation in this thread is, I believe, the biggest contributor to it. For as long as there have been things for people to admire or become a fan of, there have been "my fanboyism is more deserving than your fanboyism" and any argument that makes one side feel more validated will be accepted by that side, so the other side will look for validation as well.

Imagine a project based on an anime where jumping was added, but then taken out due to the reasoning that "I don't really jump that much in real life" and do so while envisioning a head-shaped crater in my desk from slamming my head on it in frustration.

You're right-it on both counts-Zielan was being facetious(I mean the word Zielan is synonymous with facetious) and it's absurd to approach fiction outside of rules established within that fiction-applying our own negates the fiction and the purpose for its existence.

Grega Perpetual Traveler View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Saturday, May 09, 2015

I know what hakki means, and I know what they dop and what they are used for.

My point is that One Piece fights are borring copy paste jobs of every other fight before. They don't even try to be original. And I nowhere said Dragon Ball Z was original. (well it was at the time but that's besides the point)

Luffy is one of the biggest examples of this. He is mostly just throwing round his routine attacks, but do you ever see him actually use a punch or a fake out?

Even the thing with crocodile was more "deus ex machina" than strategy. We don't need to hear him scream the same words over and over and over and over and over during a fight. It slows down the pace it breaks fluidity. Yes it may be more necesairy in the manga because you are looking at still frames, but in the anime with fluid motion its lacking in identifiable function. We see what's going on.

Also Conquerers Hakki is fear related. Overwhelming the affected person to the point of KOing them. Used on animals it can terror them in to submission.

But even that doesn't make technique in fighting. Hakki are abilities, Luffys attacks are for all intents and pourposes specials. He has no technique, he's like a street fighter 2 player who spamms hadoukens. Its effective, but borring.

Also where the heck did you guys get speciffic attacks from, when the initial focus was strategy and technique in fighting. Its got nothing to do with what attacks are used, it's about how the fights flow. The movement of the combatants and so on.

In One Piece a perfect example of technique would be Rebecca. She was the onle character I have seen who wasn't just throwing round attacks like confeti at a parade.

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Saturday, May 09, 2015

Grega wrote :
Also where the heck did you guys get speciffic attacks from, when the initial focus was strategy and technique in fighting. Its got nothing to do with what attacks are used, it's about how the fights flow. The movement of the combatants and so on.



Probably my fault given that it was the free forums, and just like Brad's curiosity with applying real world restraints to acts of fiction I also had a rabbit to chase, given that I felt that since Zielan made quite a decent stab in his lengthy post, and since you do mention "special spam" and I guess he wanted to address that part of your posts as well as the rest, rather than just leave it one-sided.

Grega wrote :
he's like a street fighter 2 player who spamms hadoukens. Its effective, but borring.



I believe these comments spurred on what they are trying to get across. They're trying to say that while you're right that it's certainly that way often, there is strategic value present part of the time-regardless of "yelling out specials" (Like Ussop vs. Luffy, in which Ussop totally controlled that fight for a time, since yes, Luffy is a thickheaded jolly clown with only the briefest glimpse of what comes next as a forethought) which is another reason they might want to bring up specific attacks, since everything gets muddied if you can dictate the terms by which someone can try to defend their position.

Grega Perpetual Traveler View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, May 10, 2015

Skatter wrote :

Grega wrote :
Also where the heck did you guys get speciffic attacks from, when the initial focus was strategy and technique in fighting. Its got nothing to do with what attacks are used, it's about how the fights flow. The movement of the combatants and so on.



Probably my fault given that it was the free forums, and just like Brad's curiosity with applying real world restraints to acts of fiction I also had a rabbit to chase, given that I felt that since Zielan made quite a decent stab in his lengthy post, and since you do mention "special spam" and I guess he wanted to address that part of your posts as well as the rest, rather than just leave it one-sided.

Grega wrote :
he's like a street fighter 2 player who spamms hadoukens. Its effective, but borring.



I believe these comments spurred on what they are trying to get across. They're trying to say that while you're right that it's certainly that way often, there is strategic value present part of the time-regardless of "yelling out specials" (Like Ussop vs. Luffy, in which Ussop totally controlled that fight for a time, since yes, Luffy is a thickheaded jolly clown with only the briefest glimpse of what comes next as a forethought) which is another reason they might want to bring up specific attacks, since everything gets muddied if you can dictate the terms by which someone can try to defend their position.



Heh good point. Totally forgot about the Ussop VS Luffy fight. yeah that one was pretty much the best so far of the ones Luffy was involved in. Since it actually resembled a fight rather than brainless punch throwing.

LegendarySS4 View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Wednesday, May 13, 2015

Characters aren't forgotten in One Piece unlike Dragonball.
Regardless, I simply want less beam variant techniques and perhaps more unique attacks being showcased such as Gotenks Galactic Doughnut, Piccolo's special beam cannon, etc...

Less rainbow style coloured hair styles and perhaps AT if he doesn't forget, add in Uub (depends whether or not this is after the 28th Tenkaichi which Uub should make an appearance or between ROF and 28th tournament which is very unlikely.)

You could also mention that brief confrontation between Monkey D. Luffy and Zoro back in Whiskey Peak. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJkTr6kowZQ

Eagle The Purpose View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, May 15, 2015

There's some good points told here. Interesting thread.

Buksna Blaizing View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Saturday, May 16, 2015

DBZkrisfhugz - Your statements are extremly biased. Everything you mentioned about "techniques" in One Piece are mostly special attacks.

You said Luffy has gears (and you said its a strategy move) - when I watched it, pretty much looked like transformation as in Dragon Ball Z to me. He got stronger as series moved onward and every time stronger one appears, Luffy reaches new heights!. Same thing in Dragon Ball Z. So please don't be biased and call Dragon Ball Z something and defend One Piece like its any different

Cell saga - Goku powers kameha, instant transmission and blows cell - see, that's a strategy move. And you probably knew about it but you disregarded it just to prove your point of Dragon Ball Z being spamming anime and One Piece a master piece of strategy and skill using

All those power based animes (Dragon Ball Z, One Piece, Bleach, Naruto, Fairy Tail.....) have been at some point strategy/ skill based but because they are based on power its normal they switch from that to spamming spells.

And it's the same in every anime. You can't really make importance of foot work if my attack destroys planet - its useless.

There...

LegendarySS4 View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Saturday, May 16, 2015

Expect some good fight choreography from a shonen series? Go read/watch Hunter x Hunter and Jojo Bizarre adventure to name a few series.

DBZkrisfhugz View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, May 17, 2015

>Buksna
Correction.. Gears of Luffy is not a transformation.. it's a technique. it's a lot different from Super Saiyan. You can put it like Kiaoken. I think Kiaoken is a technique.

I'm just saying that Dragon Ball Z lacks strategy fights. Look at Cell vs Goku, they just do the same move everytime. The same animation of fights... Puch, After Image.. and Then Punch, and we will not see the two fighters because they are so fast??

But in One Piece, yes they are Yelling this Childish "special attacks" but that is the good thing. They have strategy.

For example:

Kris: "Fire Fist!!"
Buksna: that won't work! "Freeze Wall"!!!

at some point, they are yelling their attacks but it gives strategy, and it gives logic that who will lose

like this
again

Eagle The Purpose View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, May 17, 2015

>Kris

Are you comparing 2 animes from different decades ? With different techniques of animations/drawing ?

You should all base yourself on the paper versions, far from the anime corruption and marvelous escapades.

Yes, the Kaioken is a technique. For a period, you can control your ki to intensify it and even go further your body's limit. But it causes extreme fatigue and damages.

In fact, this guy will explain it better than me :p : http://zeq2lite.deviantart.com/art/Goku-Kaio-ken-135874117

The gear second is activated by using a part of the body as a pump to double the blood flow and bring more energy to muscles. It bring fatigue quickly.

Personally, I consider both mangas same, they are shonen. Why even debate about this ?

Except if everyone wants to defend it's favorite manga. Wink

Zeth The Admin View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, May 17, 2015

Yes, the Kaioken is a technique. For a period, you can control your ki to intensify it and even go further your body's limit. But it causes extreme fatigue and damages.


The way anime characters explain something, how it is visually portrayed, how it is mechanically portrayed, how it might have existed in source (manga) material, how the creator intended/justified it; these each can be COMPLETELY different in nature.

There is no "right" or "wrong" explanation.
There are just different scopes that qualify a perspective.

Eagle The Purpose View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, May 17, 2015

>Zeth

I start from the fact that animes only bring fiddle sticks to the original story. What is shown in the paper version, how it is explained by the characters, how we interpret it. Everything bring back to this definition. I don't see in what it could be different.

Grega Perpetual Traveler View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, May 17, 2015

DBZkrisfhugz wrote : But in One Piece, yes they are Yelling this Childish "special attacks" but that is the good thing. They have strategy.

For example:

Kris: "Fire Fist!!"
Buksna: that won't work! "Freeze Wall"!!!



that's not technique or strategy, that's coreography.

And again you are putting as an example one of the only what 2 or 3 fights in the entire series where a character displays any sort of forethought. That link right there is hands down the best fight in the entire animated serries of One Piece.

So lets not count the best and worst, and focus on everything in between. And everything in between is a typican shonen style dragfeast.

And again I'm not saying its bad, I'm just saying its got no technique to the fights in general.

DBZkrisfhugz View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, May 17, 2015

yeah you are right Greg..

Let's just say.. One Piece has more Logic while fighting Fights than Dragon Ball Z

they both have Logic. But Dragon Ball Z Lacks more Logic

Grega Perpetual Traveler View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, May 17, 2015

DBZkrisfhugz wrote : yeah you are right Greg..

Let's just say.. One Piece has more Logic while fighting Fights than Dragon Ball Z

they both have Logic. But Dragon Ball Z Lacks more Logic


The fights in Dragon Ball Z were severely hampered by the animation standards 20 years ago. One Piece doesn't have that.

And to me they are pretty much the same taking the time difference in to account. Sadly that's the anime industry for you.

That said, I have not missed a single ep either way *intense laughter*

Zeth The Admin View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, May 17, 2015

I start from the fact that animes only bring fiddle sticks to the original story.


My post was about practices of identification on a whole.

You are creating these classes of distinction yourself. Discard the popularly elitist consensus that manga is purist and animes are just byproducts for just a moment. All creation is derivative -- and therefore influenced by something that already exists. Whether the sources of influence are apparent or masked changes nothing to their actual, intrinsic attributes.

Individuals make comparisons to what they already know because it helps them correlate and sort new information easily. The problem with building relationships like this is that connections are often forced through generalizations -- using broad labels to define/classify something even if it doesn't accurately identify it.

This is different than using abstraction to build relationships. Much to the chagrin of modern generalizations, saying a game is like "Final Fantasy" is not the same as saying it is an "RPG" which is not the same as simply saying it is "character level-based" which is not the same as simply saying it has "game stats". You can often go much further to break down generalizations and abstract the qualities; however, typically you need not worry beyond relating one proper noun (or broad grouping) to another to get a more specific identifying quality.

Topically relative, the point is that the anime and manga are different entities and should not be compared directly. If you dislike a distinction, you need to identify why you don't like the EXACT attribute on its own merits rather than just generalize the difference between the two.

"I dun likes Luigi because he Mario but hat green"
"I dun likes anime because it manga but not same".

What is shown in the paper version, how it is explained by the characters, how we interpret it. Everything bring back to this definition. I don't see in what it could be different.


Character (Manga) : This attack has 1 million power!
Character (Anime) : This attack can obliterate this planet!
Creator           : Would create black-hole if triggered.
User View         : Looks same as common attack.
User Observation  : Has impact/effect equivalent to weaker attack.



Character : Is the character bluffing? Is the character being literal? Is the character lying? Does the character actually know how something works or are they making assumptions?

Creator : Is the statement a retcon? Is the statement a "what-if" due to their vision not being accurately represented? Is the statement actually supported by anything intrinsic (inside the series)?

User View : Is what we see an indicator of distinction? Does our position/distance relative to the event alter how we see it? Is what we are viewing skewed by any force/attribute?

User Observation : Does the cause and effect reliably occur in a consistent manner? What other measurably factors could have caused the effect to be different than its other occurrences?

For an anime, most fans will have a priority of reality as :
Creator, Character (Manga), View, Observation.

However, an intrinsic, pragmatic priority of reality is :
Observation, View, Character (Direct).

It really all depends on what your goals are. Accuracy in terms of creator's intentions is completely different than accuracy in terms of media's actual attributes.

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