ZEQ2 Lite

Monday, October 24, 2011

I've heavily edited Raditz's armor, took his scouter, then I get Ginyu ! Tadaa !

Despite what TRL may say, this is actually the more efficient approach to accomplishing the model. Reusing existing works is how progress happens effectively. Yes, it will likely need proportion/detail tweaks and so forth, but having a foundation will give you a tremendous head-start.

Working each model (or any piece of media) from scratch every time is not only almost never done at an indie or industry-level, but it's almost never done at engineering level (of any kind) either.

Monday, October 24, 2011

Zeth wrote :

I've heavily edited Raditz's armor, took his scouter, then I get Ginyu ! Tadaa !

Despite what TRL may say, this is actually the more efficient approach to accomplishing the model. Reusing existing works is how progress happens effectively. Yes, it will likely need proportion/detail tweaks and so forth, but having a foundation will give you a tremendous head-start.

Working each model (or any piece of media) from scratch every time is not only almost never done at an indie or industry-level, but it's almost never done at engineering level (of any kind) either.

That's exactly what I've been trying to tell them .

Tuesday, October 25, 2011

JayREEZY wrote :

Zeth wrote :

I've heavily edited Raditz's armor, took his scouter, then I get Ginyu ! Tadaa !

Despite what TRL may say, this is actually the more efficient approach to accomplishing the model. Reusing existing works is how progress happens effectively. Yes, it will likely need proportion/detail tweaks and so forth, but having a foundation will give you a tremendous head-start.

Working each model (or any piece of media) from scratch every time is not only almost never done at an indie or industry-level, but it's almost never done at engineering level (of any kind) either.

That's exactly what I've been trying to tell them .

Really? I thought you meant that... Oh wait, now I understand . And here we were arguing that edits of models are for people with amateur skills...

Tuesday, October 25, 2011

Zeth wrote :

I've heavily edited Raditz's armor, took his scouter, then I get Ginyu ! Tadaa !

Despite what TRL may say, this is actually the more efficient approach to accomplishing the model. Reusing existing works is how progress happens effectively. Yes, it will likely need proportion/detail tweaks and so forth, but having a foundation will give you a tremendous head-start.

Working each model (or any piece of media) from scratch every time is not only almost never done at an indie or industry-level, but it's almost never done at engineering level (of any kind) either.

But its always good to know how to model the whole thing, and even though, ZEQ2 has quality material it isn't as perfect, so if you still continue to support re-using your outdated material eventually everyone will make mistakes that the original creator has made at that time.

It's like painting a copy painting, you copy mistakes from the artists, even if you know it's not right.

And I know that no one yet in this community has reached the quality of ZEQ2, but you should also support "from scratch" kind of improving.

Nice job Malek, I suggest you learn how to model a complete character and then re-use your parts and make them as accurate for your later models. That way your skill level will rise and you won't get attacked by guys like TRL

Tuesday, October 25, 2011

A. I didn't attack anyone.

B. I never said that using Raditz' body was a bad thing. I actually mentioned in the chat a few days ago that all of the Ginyu force can be easily made by reusing Nappa and Raditz.

C. Boohoo stop attacking me!

D. Jayreezy, didn't you defend editing because you can't do any better? I have yet to see otherwise..

Tuesday, October 25, 2011

TRL wrote : D. Jayreezy, didn't you defend editing because you can't do any better? I have yet to see otherwise..

How very unproffesional of you, I honestly trusted you as a mentor and as an adult, but you proved me wrong again. May I ask, do you believe in God? If not, that would explain a lot about your character and attitude.

Postscript. I actually have too much more to do than try to impress you. Your models actually are nothing compared to sv either. I'm also only 16, so save your breath for someone who doesn't have public school.

TRL wrote : A. I didn't attack anyone.

A. You just did ...

Tuesday, October 25, 2011

JayREEZY wrote :

TRL wrote : D. Jayreezy, didn't you defend editing because you can't do any better? I have yet to see otherwise..

How very unproffesional of you, I honestly trusted you as a mentor and as an adult, but you proved me wrong again. May I ask, do you believe in geeod? If not, that would explain a lot about your character and attitude.

Postscript. I actually have too much more to do than try to impress you. Your models actually are nothing compared to sv either.

TRL wrote : A. I didn't attack anyone.

A. You just did ...

Uhhhh... I am going to stay out of this one...

Tuesday, October 25, 2011

Well, I'm sorry but, I'm not going to try to prove myself to him. by the way, isn't that a direct violation of the guidlines ? I've literally fallen too far behind in my schoolwork to try to impress him (which I feel I have to do). It's like a total addiction .

I love how Ginyu is going, you guys are doing great .

Tuesday, October 25, 2011

If you feel offended, it's only because it's true. You haven't shown any self made models yet..

If you feel anger towards yourself that you haven't risen up to the challenged yet, okay.

Otherwise I don't see it..

Also please don't bring up that tarnish on humanity in any conversation with me.

Tuesday, October 25, 2011

Were do you suppose I would even put them then TRL? My models aren't even Dragon Ball Z based. They are also very offtopic (I really want to show you).

Tuesday, October 25, 2011

JayREEZY wrote : Were do you suppose I would even put them then TRL? My models aren't even Dragon Ball Z based. They are also very offtopic (I really want to show you).

Create a topic in the Free Forums. Actually, I think there already is a topic about 3D modeling, and the models don't need to be Dragon Ball Z related.

Wednesday, October 26, 2011

But its always good to know how to model the whole thing, and even though, ZEQ2 has quality material it isn't as perfect, so if you still continue to support re-using your outdated material eventually everyone will make mistakes that the original creator has made at that time.

I think you meant ZEQ2-lite (again). Get it right or don't bother making a comparison. The distinction is far too great to skip over callously.

Secondly, whilst the ZEQ2-lite models are by no means perfect, they do have strong components in them that are reusable for general purposes : hands, feet, most legs/arms, and some faces/torsos. That, of course, was the point I was trying to make.

It's like painting a copy painting, you copy mistakes from the artists, even if you know it's not right.

Your analogy isn't analogous in this case. The emphasis I'm trying to illustrate is on individual components and not the full-picture. I'm not asking users to copy my full night painting. I only want them to use my moon (if it gives them a basis).

And I know that no one yet in this community has reached the quality of ZEQ2, but you should also support "from scratch" kind of improving.

ZEQ2-lite. Any improvements on the original bits are highly encouraged, but they should be encouraged as such on a per-component basis. If someone just makes a new Ginyu or Frieza from scratch, that's hardly helpful to this cause; however, if someone makes new Dragon Ball Z hands, Saiyan armor, and so forth that improve on the existing standards, a reusable and forward progressive asset is born.

Nice job Malek, I suggest you learn how to model a complete character and then re-use your parts and make them as accurate for your later models. That way your skill level will rise and you won't get attacked by guys like TRL

I'd hardly have Malek worry about something like this. While I know forum aggressors like TRL were VERY common back in early mod days (probably where he got his mannerisms), he's pretty much one of only a handful that remain on these boards -- as I've weeded them out over the years. This may not be true for other forums, of course, but there's really little point in preserving ideals that don't properly promote progression (of any kind).

Also, the first ZEQ project was actually BUILT on using other people's works (in edited/reused forms). It was a fundamental principle that the project was based upon (and that we were largely harassed for) in our humble beginnings back in 2002. Not only would it be largely hypocritical to support the same views that hindered us so much, it'd be downright idiotic not to learn a valuable lesson.

Wednesday, October 26, 2011

Aggressor?

Seriously Brad, I asked malek to say which parts he made so we could know which to critique. So it's a completely normal clarification question.

Even you thinking that if I ask these questions I'm going to scare members away from addon making is a total underestimation of any member of this forum.

So while I'm just treating people as human beings who can take a perfectly normal question, you have to stop treating people like mindless robots, pawns or work slaves and stop thinking you can stigmatize or even insult them covered up by an overexplainative wall of bullocks.

Thursday, October 27, 2011

Wow I always start a war on this boards throwing my 2 cents.

Zeth, I don't know if its you trying to prove something more than it is your ego, but in the near future if people don't go away from you, they will start to ignore your every thought.

You are a smart man, that I can see, but as TRL said, try not to level everyone beneath you, as it will curse you with loneliness eventually. And act more human because I'm starting to think that you are a bot that channels information from other sites when needed.

I typed "ZEQ2" as I am too lazy to type the whole "ZEQ2-lite" every time, even though ZEQ2 might pull some bad memories for you, it doesn't mean I'm offending you in any way by typing it.

Try to see this as a friendly advice and think about it, see yourself through other peoples eyes, stop comparing your intelligence and knowledge with kids, that's not right.

I also suggest that you cleanse this thread from our dirt, for the last time I hope.

Thursday, October 27, 2011

Denz wrote : Wow I always start a war on this boards throwing my 2 cents.

Zeth, I don't know if its you trying to prove something more than it is your ego, but in the near future if people don't go away from you, they will start to ignore your every thought.

You are a smart man, that I can see, but as TRL said, try not to level everyone beneath you, as it will curse you with loneliness eventually. And act more human because I'm starting to think that you are a bot that channels information from other sites when needed.

I typed "ZEQ2" as I am too lazy to type the whole "ZEQ2-lite" every time, even though ZEQ2 might pull some bad memories for you, it doesn't mean I'm offending you in any way by typing it.

Try to see this as a friendly advice and think about it, see yourself through other peoples eyes, stop comparing your intelligence and knowledge with kids, that's not right.

I also suggest that you cleanse this thread from our dirt, for the last time I hope.

your post is completely irrelevant , it is 100% your fault that you typed "ZEQ2" instead of "zeq2lite" and being lazy to type the full form is not a excuse , because "ZEQ2" and "Zeq2lite" are 2 different terms and projects , so your excuse is intellectually lacking , Brad is not comparing his knowledge but simply explaining as he as a lot more experience working in the industry , and his methods are most likely to produce the fastest results , regardless "how"

but yes with not knowing how to do the whole thing by our selves , I don't see how future artists can carve their own imagination into 3D

Thursday, October 27, 2011

najeeb wrote :

your post is completely irrelevant , it is 100% your fault that you typed "ZEQ2" instead of "zeq2lite" and being lazy to type the full form is not a excuse , because "ZEQ2" and "Zeq2lite" are 2 different terms and projects , so your excuse is intellectually lacking , Brad is not comparing his knowledge but simply explaining as he as a lot more experience working in the industry , and his methods are most likely to produce the fastest results , regardless "how"

but yes with not knowing how to do the whole thing by our selves , I don't see how future artists can carve their own imagination into 3D

Totally , true

Thursday, October 27, 2011

Denz wrote : Wow I always start a war on this boards throwing my 2 cents.

I do the same thing in personal conversations.

Denz wrote : Zeth, I don't know if its you trying to prove something more than it is your ego, but in the near future if people don't go away from you, they will start to ignore your every thought.

I doubt he is trying to be egotistic, and I am sure that as long as they know he has as much experience as he does, he won't be ignored for long.

Denz wrote : You are a smart man, that I can see, but as TRL said, try not to level everyone beneath you, as it will curse you with loneliness eventually. And act more human because I'm starting to think that you are a bot that channels information from other sites when needed.

It's not so much leveling as it is comparing their faults to their achievements, I think. And about that "bot" comment, I could have thought the same thing if I never discovered a tone in his prose.

Denz wrote : I typed "ZEQ2" as I am too lazy to type the whole "ZEQ2-lite" every time, even though ZEQ2 might pull some bad memories for you, it doesn't mean I'm offending you in any way by typing it.

Not a valid reason to use in a situation like this.

Denz wrote : Try to see this as a friendly advice and think about it, see yourself through other peoples eyes, stop comparing your intelligence and knowledge with kids, that's not right.

As najeeb said, Brad is using his experience, and he is likely to have been in the same situation as many others have (not necessarily a majority), or at least has some amount of insight. So you should know that he is empathetic for a number of people. Even after reading Zeth's comment, did you still not see that he was getting frustrated? As far as my experiences go, a person usually become stubborn and won't think as logically when feeling more emotional than normal.

najeeb wrote : his methods are most likely to produce the fastest results

And overall more efficient.

Thursday, October 27, 2011

Look out! Zeth is back!!!!

Thursday, October 27, 2011

I am happy to see all of you matured a little thanks to this board. You Najeeb the most.

Also, I understand Zeth's posts, that are maybe hieroglyphics to you, and I write pretty understandable, even though English is not my native language, in other words - no need for explanations guys.

My post is with a purpose and it is aimed for one man here, my observation and my critic, either way you pick it, I meant it all in a friendly vibe without no mean of producing dislike towards anyone here.

This is why there is this option called private message but unfortunately every time I have an opinion its calling out the "we support only this because that is better for the mod and not for producing quality artist" attitude.

Friday, October 28, 2011

TRL

Seriously Brad, I asked malek to say which parts he made so we could know which to critique. So it's a completely normal clarification question.

Even you thinking that if I ask these questions I'm going to scare members away from addon making is a total underestimation of any member of this forum

I'm not referring to this conversation in specific as much as generally-speaking, TRL. Your comments for improvements to be made can be addressed towards any portions of the model -- even areas he did not create personally.

Additionally, it's not so much a fear that you'll scare people away as much as the negative impact that would be taken. There are much more efficient and beneficial ways to phrase your intentions without coming off as derogative and condescending.

So while I'm just treating people as human beings who can take a perfectly normal question, you have to stop treating people like mindless robots, pawns or work slaves and stop thinking you can stigmatize or even insult them covered up by an overexplainative wall of bullocks.

I've insulted no one (indirectly or directly) and I never explain beyond what I feel is necessary to accomplish a point. We are looked up to be teachers/educators in many cases on these forums; therefore, I simply try and treat users as if they were students learning a craft under our tutelage.

This is counterpoised to your insistence that a firm hand and frequent focus on negative attributes be brought up in order for someone to improve. While that approach MAY help some individuals, more often is the case where it ends up being demoralizing, counterproductive, and reflecting of yourself as arrogant or jerk-like.

Do you sincerely think anyone on these forums could imagine a teacher in their school saying half the stuff you do to 'encourage' students to better themselves?

Denz

Zeth, I don't know if its you trying to prove something more than it is your ego, but in the near future if people don't stick around from you, they will start to ignore your every thought.

I have no ego nor a penchant for popularity. Your statement seems largely unfounded.

Do I have an ego because I like to assist people people with insight in subjects I've studied/experienced? Perhaps because I encourage individuals to reach out and help others regardless of their skill level or even train them one one one? Is it due to the fact that I promote positive reinforcement to everyone while using concrete science or at least practical thinking/logic over bias views and opinions?

Or maybe... just maybe it's because I've insisted that this ENTIRE project be open-sourced and exposed to the public in all facets without an internal development team to squabble over politics and nondisclosure of materials in an effort to show that practically anyone in the community can become a capable and worthwhile contributor to something beyond themselves?

Please elaborate. I am fully cooperative to hear your line of thinking on how any of my actions or words translate to egoism.

You are a smart man, that I can see, but as TRL said, try not to level everyone beneath you, as it will curse you with loneliness eventually. And act more human because I'm starting to think that you are a bot that channels information from other sites when needed.

Generally I try and treat everyone with equal footing as myself (as I have from the start of this project). I don't understand what your allegations are even based upon in this case. Please explain.

I typed "ZEQ2" as I am too lazy to type the whole "ZEQ2-lite" every time, even though ZEQ2 might pull some bad memories for you, it doesn't mean I'm offending you in any way by typing it.

ZEQ2 has no bad memories for myself in the least. In fact, it was the predecessor to this project and still an ongoing (albeit paused) production of an enlightening and fruitful experience.

ZEQ2-lite and ZEQ2 are distinguished not because of their relativity of name but rather due to their distinction in nature/goals. One is a Quake3-based Dragon Ball Z game (ZEQ2-lite). One is an interactive study on 3D non-photo-realistic recreations of hand-drawn animated sequences (ZEQ2).

It would be as if I made a slip-up and mentioned Luebke's collaberative paper on view-dependent NPR instead of Naruto: Naiteki Kensei. One is focused on furthering the advancement of rendering techniques in a technical field while the other is focused on user enjoyment.

At this point though, I'm largely bewildered as to where all of your assertions are even coming from (or what you are attempting to achieve by them -- if not for provocation alone).

Try to see this as a friendly advice and think about it, see yourself through other peoples eyes, stop comparing your intelligence and knowledge with kids, that's not right.

I never have and never intend to make any comparison based on my knowledge/intelligence against someone else. There is a big difference in gloating about or flouting a higher state of well-being in some area as opposed to trying to pass on things you've learned through tribulation or experience. To be quite fair, it's a basis of the original argument.

This is why there is this option called private message but unfortunately every time I have an opinion its calling out the "we support only this because that is better for the mod and not for producing quality artist" attitude.

Your comment suggests that there is a single attitude that surveyors of this game may adopt. This is hardly the case. There are certainly approaches that are superior to other approaches in some areas, but one should realize that they may be equally as weak in others. The purpose of this project is to bring to light all perspectives and allow subjective comparisons to be made to determine the most practical solutions for a particular situation.

As was the case with this topic's introduction, I introduced a concept of reusing an idea or piece of existing work in order to reach a goal more quickly and efficiently. It's not a new concept nor is it exclusive to classical mediums. It's been done throughout history for nearly all inventions/art/writings/music of mankind. Programmers (and the very concept of programming itself) highlights this concept through higher-level languages and the fundamental idea of reused code through library dependencies, sub-dependencies, and so forth.

Just as I would never recommend a new programmer to start with an assembly language to learn programming, I would never recommend someone buy uilleann pipes to learn concepts of playing music. This is parallel to the sentiment that we should seldom recommend that an individual learn how to manually create models, uvs, textures, rigs, or animations from scratch just to learn the fundamentals of how they work.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't eventually look into exploration of these ideas (should they desire to broaden their horizons), but my point is that you need to think higher-level in terms of introduction and ease your way down to the core over time as a level of comfort and experience increases.

Above all else one should NEVER be improperly criticized just because their approach isn't traditional or lower level enough in terms of capability.