I gotta agree with Damaera, and you guys should probably cut the Earth Special Forces team some slack. But you probably won't. The intentions, feelings, and respect of the people who put hard work into these things doesn't matter as long as you can post what you want, I guess.
Furthermore, whatever happens over there isn't anyone's business to cry about here. The only real area of overlap between the two communities is the base intellectual property that both communities "love".
Even when threatened he was advised just to show the content here anyway. That's not exactly respectful. And were I a standing member of that community, I'd want him shut down, too.
Their forums, their community, their content, their rules. If you don't respect them, why in the world would you expect them to respect you? I sure wouldn't/won't.
You can take whatever philosophy you want toward your actions. What is acceptable to one community isn't always acceptable to another. Just don't cry when you do something that is ultimately disrespectful and others take countermeasures.
I would think this would go without saying. Of course you can do what you want with your life. However, if you are disrespectful to me, you shouldn't be surprised when I treat you with a lack of respect or interest! It's simple cause and effect nature that shows me that your attitude/actions will produce a negative effect in my life, therefore prolonged(or heck, even minimal) exposure to you simply isn't worth it.
It's like grabbing an electric fence and then getting ill at it because it had the audacity to shock you.
Damaera wrote : You guys are way too sensitive.
I hope this is the worst thing anyone ever has to say about me in all of time, but it won't be, I'm sure
ZethThe Admin
Wednesday, December 05, 2012
You want to know why he was "attacked"? because he posted the pictures after the content was removed. Don't give me the "oh, he didn't know it was removed!" fiddle sticks, because it would have been in the original post in the first place.
I assumed Qwerty had displayed some file out of a public thread initially and then, after his excessive scolding, it was suggested he provided content given in the Force Pit or privately obtained.
If the case was one of the last two accounts, he would have some kind of moral obligation to respect their wishes; however, if he just provided an image that was already publicly supplied, then no manner of retroactive change justifies anything said to him or the images removal.
If a file is generally accessible online for even a SECOND, laws of distribution pretty much assume that it's permanently available until the end of days with no strings attached -- mistake or not.
Andrew's threats were completely justified. He threatened him with a permaban because what this qwerty kid pulled was a Richard move, and he showed content that was pulled and was planned to be shown later for a reason. This isn't the first time he's done something like this, as you can see where he uploaded dated docs for Earth Special Forces and posted them on this forum.
While providing a private image would be grounds for a discussion/warning, providing a public image is nowhere near grounds for a banning.
Earth Special Forces developers have absolute content control on their site/forums, but any amount of influence here is dictated by reason. Unless it can be proven to be legally infringing or breaking to a declared/verbal contract of some kind, then the image should still remain.
I beg to differ. When you're a developer for a project like that, you don't know how zippy it is when stuff like that happens. Just because you're sensitive and don't like harsh words doesn't mean he was wrong.
'Cept I do. In cases of public slip-ups, developer intentions are irrelevant. Retcon if you must, but roll with your mistakes; don't try to cover them. Threatening a banning (for practically any unjustified reason) just gives you a bad rap and suggests trigger-finger abuse.
I've been generously withholding on input up to this point, but I've no problem throwing down some verbal annihilation on this topic if need be -- and I don't think there's a single person, here or there, developer or otherwise, willing to see it through when it comes to me.
Maszek
Wednesday, December 05, 2012
ESFER25 wrote :
najeeb wrote :
ESFER25 wrote :
najeeb wrote : so I'm a Richard and un polite ?
You just said he's a richard and impolite, which makes you impolite...
he is always like that , stop being a smartass
There! You're being impolite again.
Would you mind providing some constructive input on the matter instead of launching a personal crusade againts Najeeb without any justifiable reason? Thanks. You can settle your private girl-fights in *da-dum* private messages.
Skatter#*&@%!
Wednesday, December 05, 2012
najeeb wrote :
so its better if you read all of this again
It's really better that I hadn't read it at all, but it's a bit late for that now I didn't really see anything cussing him out or calling him names, just a fair warning that continuing to do something that's frowned upon there will get him removed. If I missed those things, I just am not sure where to look. Either way, I think it isn't a case of my comprehension, I think it's just that you and I look at this in two entirely different ways.
I guess maybe you could say they overreacted. Maybe. I don't see it that way, and I don't frequent the Earth Special Forces community(nor any very often) enough to know how they typically handle things. But you know, an apology and decision to remove the content from qwerty might've gone a long way toward changing their perception of him. Now, eh.
It's not my call. But part of the point I was trying to make earlier is that while it isn't my call, it's not your call, or the call of anyone in this community to make. It's theirs. They can treat him how they want to for it. There are graceful ways to handle it, sure, but the internet is seldom graceful.
I guess the only real thing I could say that might remotely matter is this: "If you find yourself wanting to be a part of a community this strongly, and they have a problem with your actions, either you're willing to adjust to be a cohesive part of the community, or you're willing to be ostracized for being you! Pick one, because it's unlikely that you'll get both!"
Maszek wrote : Would you mind providing some constructive input on the matter...
I agree with you about attacking each other. But there really isn't going to be anything constructive said here, likely. You've got a difference in ideology from two separate communities, where those differences are being forced to attempt to overlap to provide justification for what is frowned upon in one community but lauded in another. So ultimately it won't matter. Qwerty is, however unfortunate I find it, free to keep the image up here. However, they're equally as free to not want him to be a part of their community. It just doesn't matter.
najeebMy Sir
Thursday, December 06, 2012
the bottom like is we both do have a different analogy on the case , my problem was if they wanted qwerty to remove it , they should have asked it nicely , though its their call , it ticked me off and I encouraged him to post it here instead
Maszek
Thursday, December 06, 2012
najeeb wrote : the bottom like is we both do have a different analogy on the case , my problem was if they wanted qwerty to remove it , they should have asked it nicely , though its their call , it ticked me off and I encouraged him to post it here instead
I do see your point - The message was harsh. And as I said, I don't agree with their management methods. I agree with Qwerty being asked to remove the picture, but don't agree with the manners.
However, as Skatter said, we can judge them all we want without making any difference.
JayREEZY
Thursday, December 06, 2012
Zeth wrote : I've been generously withholding on input up to this point, but I've no problem throwing down some verbal annihilation on this topic if need be -- and I don't think there's a single person, here or there, developer or otherwise, willing to see it through when it comes to me.
Flex those muscles!
Damaera
Thursday, December 06, 2012
najeeb wrote : the bottom like is we both do have a different analogy on the case , my problem was if they wanted qwerty to remove it , they should have asked it nicely , though its their call , it ticked me off and I encouraged him to post it here instead
and I'm glad we all came to the conclusion where we learned that was a horrible suggestion and you should stop being sensitive
najeebMy Sir
Thursday, December 06, 2012
Damaera wrote :
najeeb wrote : the bottom like is we both do have a different analogy on the case , my problem was if they wanted qwerty to remove it , they should have asked it nicely , though its their call , it ticked me off and I encouraged him to post it here instead
and I'm glad we all came to the conclusion where we learned that was a horrible suggestion and you should stop being sensitive
horrible to you
Damaera
Thursday, December 06, 2012
Zeth wrote :
You want to know why he was "attacked"? because he posted the pictures after the content was removed. Don't give me the "oh, he didn't know it was removed!" fiddle sticks, because it would have been in the original post in the first place.
I assumed Qwerty had displayed some file out of a public thread initially and then, after his excessive scolding, it was suggested he provided content given in the Force Pit or privately obtained.
If the case was one of the last two accounts, he would have some kind of moral obligation to respect their wishes; however, if he just provided an image that was already publicly supplied, then no manner of retroactive change justifies anything said to him or the images removal.
If a file is generally accessible online for even a SECOND, laws of distribution pretty much assume that it's permanently available until the end of days with no strings attached -- mistake or not.
It was up for what I would assume a very short moment. Just because it was available and open to the public doesn't mean that absolutely everyone saw it. It was pulled for a reason, and what qwerty pulled was a douchey move by posting the removed pictures on their very own forums. Let's not pretend that if we happened to be in the old days, you or an artist such as SV, wouldn't attempt to remove content such as a work in progress model after someone posted it right after you pulled it from the public after a couple of short moments before posting it.
If they didn't want pulled content to be posted on their own forums, then their wishes should be respected no matter what. It's their website, game, and forum.
Andrew's threats were completely justified. He threatened him with a permaban because what this qwerty kid pulled was a Richard move, and he showed content that was pulled and was planned to be shown later for a reason. This isn't the first time he's done something like this, as you can see where he uploaded dated docs for Earth Special Forces and posted them on this forum.
While providing a private image would be grounds for a discussion/warning, providing a public image is nowhere near grounds for a banning.
Earth Special Forces developers have absolute content control on their site/forums, but any amount of influence here is dictated by reason. Unless it can be proven to be legally infringing or breaking to a declared/verbal contract of some kind, then the image should still remain.
Sorry, Brad. I disagree. In a perfect world, sure it should remain up. However, mistakes happen and sometimes things either get rushed and there's miscommunications and then things like this end up happening. Again, if they pulled the content from their site and wished for it to remain unposted, then they have the right to say so and react accordingly to those who don't respect their wishes.
I beg to differ. When you're a developer for a project like that, you don't know how zippy it is when stuff like that happens. Just because you're sensitive and don't like harsh words doesn't mean he was wrong.
'Cept I do. In cases of public slip-ups, developer intentions are irrelevant. Retcon if you must, but roll with your mistakes; don't try to cover them. Threatening a banning (for practically any unjustified reason) just gives you a bad rap and suggests trigger-finger abuse.
I've been generously withholding on input up to this point, but I've no problem throwing down some verbal annihilation on this topic if need be -- and I don't think there's a single person, here or there, developer or otherwise, willing to see it through when it comes to me.
I would agree with rolling with mistakes if what happened had been more publicly known. From what it seems, very few people had the chance to see the pictures that got pulled from the site. At this point it's just my opinion and yours, but from my standpoint, I view the threat as completely justifiable because 1. it's their own site, as zippy as it sounds, they have every right to high five anyone for anything. and 2. I'm repeating myself a lot, but what qwerty did was really zippy and he should have respected the team by keeping quiet until the images were posted. You would be crazy to not think that there would be no reaction like this (blunt or not) towards someone who posted removed content on their very own website.
Linkxp500
Thursday, December 06, 2012
Well, I'll just say that qwerty did disrespect their wishes, and the staff were rightfully angry, but no threat was absolutely justifiable. The staff were disrespected, so yeah, they are going to retaliate. They could handle it differently, whether they had the right to threaten a high five or not, but in a way, they issued qwerty a warning, so I'd say it could have been worse.
ZethThe Admin
Thursday, December 06, 2012
It was up for what I would assume a very short moment. Just because it was available and open to the public doesn't mean that absolutely everyone saw it. It was pulled for a reason, and what qwerty pulled was a douchey move by posting the removed pictures on their very own forums.
That hardly makes him douchey. If anything he's vigilant. To be douchey, he has to be doing something to intentionally cause problems. From what I know of qwerty, he's a hyperactive fan who appreciates practically EVERY Dragon Ball Z game/aspect in existence. Have you seen his mod group and raw pursuit for old projects on these forums? His surface level intention was clearly not to harm, but rather to give insight.
You assume he's being a douche because you assume he's a typical online fearsome creature with a negative outlook and maliciously driven playbook; however, his history and actions say otherwise.
Let's not pretend that if we happened to be in the old days, you or an artist such as SV, wouldn't attempt to remove content such as a work in progress model after someone posted it right after you pulled it from the public after a couple of short moments before posting it.
These kinds of things very clearly DID happen, yes. And while the events were masked in my earlier (pre-2006) management days, lessons were quickly learned about repercussions and impacts.
Even during SV's era there were plenty of times where internal content was provided to the general public without knowledge. EVEN a build was leaked at one point. Did we high five, threaten the user, or try to cover up the mishap? Nope. We ENCOURAGED users to check it out and give a chuckle -- even providing a locally-hosted link to it in the forums.
If content was accidentally posted or later edited/fixed, we'd never try and punish or hide the fact if the original images were provided elsewhere. That'd simply be insanely and excessively controlling.
If they didn't want pulled content to be posted on their own forums, then their wishes should be respected no matter what. It's their website, game, and forum.
On their website, sure. They have rights to fully do what they wish, but this is a dual-edged blade. They cannot expect their user-base to be unaffected perception-wise by publicly-visible decisions.
Sorry, Brad. I disagree. In a perfect world, sure it should remain up. However, mistakes happen and sometimes things either get rushed and there's miscommunications and then things like this end up happening. Again, if they pulled the content from their site and wished for it to remain unposted, then they have the right to say so and react accordingly to those who don't respect their wishes.
The problem I was addressing wasn't their handling of their own site, but rather how it affected qwerty on THESE forums. If they want to rule with an iron fist and throw a blanket over any mistake like it never occurred, that's their business; however, they have no right to feel that this decision has any impact here whatsoever without a reasonably logical drive.
I've seen the mistake happen a half dozen time with ZEQ2. Why would I simply let history repeat given the experiences and hindsight knowledge on the subject? It'd be ignorantly irresponsible on my part to do so.
I would agree with rolling with mistakes if what happened had been more publicly known. From what it seems, very few people had the chance to see the pictures that got pulled from the site. At this point it's just my opinion and yours, but from my standpoint
Probably not the best turn of words for this scenario, but I'll spare you a verbose side-debate. As I explain multiple times, absolutely any rationally justifiable reason is fine, but the participants have to be willing to break down all criteria that are addressed and not just just try and sweep finer details out of the way.
Heh heh, I find it amusing that after all the squabbling, the back and fourths and whatnot, he still finds it justifiable to fuel the fire.
Querty is quite the impenitent one, yes?
ZethThe Admin
Tuesday, December 18, 2012
Heh heh, I find it amusing that after all the squabbling, the back and fourths and whatnot, he still finds it justifiable to fuel the fire.
Querty is quite the impenitent one, yes?
How do you figure? He's posting images relevant to the topic.
As for the image itself, I believe this is an older effect before fixes were done. You can see a smoke trail on the beams and there's some severe 1-bit specular acne occurring on one frame (likely exaggerated due to gif palettes).
Linkxp500
Wednesday, December 19, 2012
Unless I see another message saying that qwerty should remove these images, I really don't see how he is fueling the fire.
Otherwise, I would have said something.
Anyway, I noticed that when the beams collide, two flat circle effects appear... Judging merely by that, I figure Brad is right that this is an older effect. Everything else looks graphically appealing except that beam collision.
najeebMy Sir
Wednesday, December 19, 2012
comparing to any Dragon Ball Z mod/game , even that looks appealing
Djosama
Wednesday, December 19, 2012
Zeth wrote :
Heh heh, I find it amusing that after all the squabbling, the back and fourths and whatnot, he still finds it justifiable to fuel the fire.
Querty is quite the impenitent one, yes?
How do you figure? He's posting images relevant to the topic.
As for the image itself, I believe this is an older effect before fixes were done. You can see a smoke trail on the beams and there's some severe 1-bit specular acne occurring on one frame (likely exaggerated due to gif palettes).
Yeah, after taking a second look, this does in fact aeem like an older incomplete work.
Linkxp500 wrote : Unless I see another message saying that qwerty should remove these images, I really don't see how he is fueling the fire.
Otherwise, I would have said something.
Anyway, I noticed that when the beams collide, two flat circle effects appear... Judging merely by that, I figure Brad is right that this is an older effect. Everything else looks graphically appealing except that beam collision.
I said he was fueling the fire because I assumed that he somehow got a hold of even more images that weren't intended for the public to see.
Assumptions are never good.
Linkxp500
Thursday, December 20, 2012
Djosama wrote : Assumptions are never good.
Good to know you understand that.
Maszek
Thursday, December 20, 2012
Linkxp500 wrote :
Djosama wrote : Assumptions are never good.
Good to know you understand that.
I've thought about it too, since the original guy on the Earth Special Forces forums specifically got permission to post it. But I guess if they told him he can post it, that means they consider it public content, no longer bound to the Pit of Ego Warriors.
qwertyIn Advance
Sunday, December 23, 2012
Christmas gifts?
macdaddymario wrote : Gifts are given, not asked for
macdaddymario wrote : I stand by gifts are given, not asked for. That being said, it's MOTY time, as well as Christmas time.. I'm sure they are working on something.
qwertyIn Advance
Monday, December 24, 2012
Grega wrote : ...Dalte has been creating a Trailer for New Years. Today we you like to show you a teaserof what's to come on New Years day.
#*&@%!
The Admin
My Sir
In Advance
