ZEQ2 Lite

Wednesday, October 10, 2012

In scientific research there can be contradicting opinions based on facts. It's just a matter of which facts you select. There is no universal truth, unless maybe for math and physics.

In such regards, you are correct. Absolute/Immutable truth cannot exist. That is not the focus of this debate, however. The two points I've been continually trying to address are the following :

1. Presenting any information to someone else without substantiation to support its existence offers little to no value/influence to the listener. This is the complication with an opinion.
2. Holding only a single perspective about a piece of information creates bias. This regards a view as restricted/limited -- diminishing its objectivity and thus value as a whole.

ALL of my presentation of information adheres to the first in that I go to great lengths to ensure that the perspectives I submit have plenty of valid supporting logic. Not only this, but even though I am providing the perspectives, they are not the only acknowledged viewpoint on the current situation. I could very well argue you the exact opposite and still present it in a manner correlating to the above points to ensure a measure of worth and purpose.

Even shorter version? Analyze. Introspect. Keep an open mind.

Wednesday, October 10, 2012

JayREEZY wrote : Well as funny as it is, oppa gangam style (the song) vacuums...

If you don't think I have a valid reason for saying it's bad, imagine the song with no lyrics and no visuals...

Is it still good?

If not, then the song vacuums (which is why I listen to BGM's all the time).

ssj6vegeta wrote : my lloyd.....this thread was about gangnam style

But you're right. This thread isn't about how "good" the song is, is it? We came here because it makes the majority of us laugh, and that will always suffice.

GWAAH! There it is again! Sorry... Something about Zeth entering threads make me think... a little too much! :*laughing out loud*:

*starts spitting everywhere* song has no lyrics but still is awesome, problem?

Wednesday, October 10, 2012

I'm just going to jump back in and say that opinion can be supported by logic and facts, and that's when the opinion has value.

Brad is just saying you can't have a valuable opinion if you have nothing, whether it be logic, facts, or universally or commonly shared emotions or ways of thinking, to support it.

Wednesday, October 10, 2012

Linkxp500 wrote : I'm just going to jump back in and say that opinion can be supported by logic and facts, and that's when the opinion has value.

Brad is just saying you can't have a valuable opinion if you have nothing, whether it be logic, facts, or universally or commonly shared emotions or ways of thinking, to support it.

Aren't opinions supposed to be valuable only to the one with the opinion? It's not supposed to matter at all if OTHER PEOPLE find it valuable in the slightest.

Wednesday, October 10, 2012

Maszek wrote :

Linkxp500 wrote : I'm just going to jump back in and say that opinion can be supported by logic and facts, and that's when the opinion has value.

Brad is just saying you can't have a valuable opinion if you have nothing, whether it be logic, facts, or universally or commonly shared emotions or ways of thinking, to support it.

Aren't opinions supposed to be valuable only to the one with the opinion? It's not supposed to matter at all if OTHER PEOPLE find it valuable in the slightest.

Suppose that is the case... what's the point of an opinion if it has no use other than being believed by the person with the opinion? Does it accomplish anything? Does anyone care what that opinion would be?

The point I'm trying to make is that opinions that are commonly shared tend to have higher value than an opinion that is kept to oneself, or foolishly exclaimed out loud.

This is the same case as if there was a jury, whose majority of opinions would decide the outcome of the case. If a single person shared his view and stood by his judgment of "Not guilty," and the rest had common views on the matter and claimed the defendant "Guilty," who do you think will decide the outcome of the case? The majority is always favored, because they share the same opinion about the accused.

Same thing happens in lots of scenarios. One who was accused of being a witch was not given a trial, and anyone who defended the accused was also put to death.

For this reason, the majority of people, whether they believed the accused was a witch or not, did not dare speak out against the majority because when they do, they are normally the only ones speaking out at any one time, which indicates that their opinion is not valid. These people are singled out, and when one opinion is openly shared by no one in public, that opinion is generally invalidated.

If you didn't read my entire comment, here it is in a nutshell: Opinions are worthless unless they are commonly believed. Or if they are supported by evidence.

Wednesday, October 10, 2012

Linkxp500 wrote :

Maszek wrote :

Linkxp500 wrote : I'm just going to jump back in and say that opinion can be supported by logic and facts, and that's when the opinion has value.

Brad is just saying you can't have a valuable opinion if you have nothing, whether it be logic, facts, or universally or commonly shared emotions or ways of thinking, to support it.

Aren't opinions supposed to be valuable only to the one with the opinion? It's not supposed to matter at all if OTHER PEOPLE find it valuable in the slightest.

Suppose that is the case... what's the point of an opinion if it has no use other than being believed by the person with the opinion? Does it accomplish anything? Does anyone care what that opinion would be?

The point I'm trying to make is that opinions that are commonly shared tend to have higher value than an opinion that is kept to oneself, or foolishly exclaimed out loud.

This is the same case as if there was a jury, whose majority of opinions would decide the outcome of the case. If a single person shared his view and stood by his judgment of "Not guilty," and the rest had common views on the matter and claimed the defendant "Guilty," who do you think will decide the outcome of the case? The majority is always favored, because they share the same opinion about the accused.

Same thing happens in lots of scenarios. One who was accused of being a witch was not given a trial, and anyone who defended the accused was also put to death.

For this reason, the majority of people, whether they believed the accused was a witch or not, did not dare speak out against the majority because when they do, they are normally the only ones speaking out at any one time, which indicates that their opinion is not valid. These people are singled out, and when one opinion is openly shared by no one in public, that opinion is generally invalidated.

If you didn't read my entire comment, here it is in a nutshell: Opinions are worthless unless they are commonly believed. Or if they are supported by evidence.

The point of an opinion is to keep it for yourself, OR if it's widely supported speak it-but then you are repeating something already said. It's a complicated thing. Opinions can be used to get known with other people, but obviously they can NEVER be used to win an argument the legit way.

I view opinions as indestructible, but also lacking in identifiable function 99% of the time. Opinions backed up by facts are no longer opinions to me, since in my opinion(opception) an opinion is a belief you have, totally ignoring any and all facts about whatever the target of your collection of unsupported data is.

Thus, an opinion is your perception of something without any outside influence, in my opinion.

And THAT is something no-one can invalidate, ever... Since that would already count as outside influence, thus breaking the rules I have set up for myself about opinions. And those rules are just another opinion, ALSO uninfluenced by outside facts. See what I did there?

EDIT: Why is the word opinion sometimes filtered to collection of unsupported data, and sometimes not? Or is it another word?

Wednesday, October 10, 2012

Opinion is invalid for just that reason; it has no outside influence, namely proof and reason.

Perception of any concept based solely on hunch has no worth, whereas an opinion guided by reason is valid because it is in line with rules set to govern intellectual discussions like we have here.

Wednesday, October 10, 2012

it's so sad when a guy records song speaks in korean becomes hit, earns so much money... everyone likes it but have no clue what is song about just sing gangam style since it's a title while there are people who sing over 20 years and still being underrated..

Wednesday, October 10, 2012

yo....What is this?? I just wanna gangnam man ;_;

Wednesday, October 10, 2012

Maszek wrote : Opinions backed up by facts are no longer opinions to me, since in my opinion(opception) an opinion is a belief you have, totally ignoring any and all facts about whatever the target of your collection of unsupported data is.

Linkxp500 wrote : Perception of any concept based solely on hunch has no worth, whereas an opinion guided by reason is valid because it is in line with rules set to govern intellectual discussions like we have here.

NOTE: Sorry if I sound offensive, I'm actually totally enjoying this debate.

How can an opinion "backed by facts," or, "guided by reason" receive any more validation than an undeveloped one? Does it have better validation because it's more rewarding to those who did their homework? How widely it is accepted still doesn't change, but the premise is pure. True daht.

Soulja Boy was still widely accepted, believed, and listened to regardless of the fact he blurted out nothing but random testosterone-fueled nonsense and indecisive dribble, and that was SPECIFICALLY because he wasn't backed by facts or reason...

It makes me wonder... Are they scared? Are people afraid to go beyond the looking glass even if it endangers their opinions? Or in this case, taste in music?

Something about the music industry today renders reason, beliefs, and opinions lacking in identifiable function, and how "good" any given artist is, can still be irrelevant even when they are backed by facts. How much morale a singer receives seems to be based soley on peer pressure, and advertisements. Or in other words, perceived solely on hunch...

Either way, opinions are invalid, and the music industry today vacuums.

Linkxp500 wrote : The point I'm trying to make is that opinions that are commonly shared tend to have higher value than an opinion that is kept to oneself, or foolishly exclaimed out loud.

True, true indeed, but in the end, is it not still an opinion? Is it not still disposable when both sides are analyzed without bias, or when social background has changed? As long as backgrounds are changing, so will opinions, interests, hobbies and beliefs. An educated opinion will still suffer the same fate; much like when a man who is stranded out in the wilderness for months. He will begin to question all the things listed above,(beliefs, interests, hobbies and opinions etc.) and that was only because his background was changed.

People should not be held accountable for having a "less" valid opinion, as long as we take into account it still has received no more outside influence than a "valid" one. Basically, a person without any rhyme or reason to their opinion may still have had experiences that the one with the, "valid" opinion, has not.

Because of this, personally, I believe that there is no such thing as a "bad" impression. Some people know things I don't, regardless of how lacking I initially think some people are.

If that is not the case, an opinion that is foolishly exclaimed out loud can be thrown to the wayside...

Maszek wrote : Thus, an opinion is your perception of something without any outside influence, in my opinion.

If anything, that should be the wikipedia definition It's short, sweet, and to the point.

The point is, perceived idiocy CAN be justified. Sometimes... kind of.. Because at the end of the day, who we perceive as "leaping lizards," usually think the same of us, and that isn't going to change unless we break some barriers.

Regardless, barriers have to be broken, BEFORE opinions are formed; which the majority of human beings fail to do(mainly americans). I am still guilty of this for not liking Oppa Gangam style. I realize that, but I'm an american..

...and I don't wunna break the barrier! I don't feel like it! :/

Thursday, October 11, 2012

topic needs to be split

mima honey go for it

Thursday, October 11, 2012

You guys are taking this waaaay to seriously.

Also the thought that opinions are completely worthless is laughable. It makes it seem like opinions are just random thoughts unrelated to anything and based on nothing. I guess my opinions are just better than yours.

@dbzfan: This is broadening your cultural horizon. There is a whole world out there for you to discover, not just the English speaking parts. You should be glad, not sad.

Also this is another reason to love Psy's Gangnam style, because it is able to spur these kind of discussions. This just adds to the humour.

Thursday, October 11, 2012

TRL wrote : You guys are taking this waaaay to seriously.

Also the thought that opinions are completely worthless is laughable. It makes it seem like opinions are just random thoughts unrelated to anything and based on nothing. I guess my opinions are just better than yours.

Opinions aren't worthless, but delusions in the face of facts are

Thursday, October 11, 2012

Alex wrote :

TRL wrote : You guys are taking this waaaay to seriously.

Also the thought that opinions are completely worthless is laughable. It makes it seem like opinions are just random thoughts unrelated to anything and based on nothing. I guess my opinions are just better than yours.

Opinions aren't worthless, but delusions in the face of facts are

Like for instance creationists vs the facts of evolution? Or where you hinting at something else?

Thursday, October 11, 2012

Like for instance creationists vs the facts of evolution? Or where you hinting at something else?

Intended or otherwise, Alex just summarized the core of my text in a single line. Alex Knows.

Thursday, October 11, 2012

Well Brad, see the virtue of brevity.

I think your messages might sometimes be lost in translation, or rather in the processing of the vast amount of text.

Thursday, October 11, 2012

I'll be spending the next 6 months researching the connection between Gangnam Style and a discussion about facts and opinions.

Thursday, October 11, 2012

TRL wrote :
Like for instance creationists vs the facts of evolution? Or where you hinting at something else?

No specific intentions, it was just a generalised response. Also it was an unintended side effect that I summarised Brad's posts as I hadn't read them, I guess great minds think alike

Creationist vs facts of evolution is a good example, as those arguments are pure delusions. I'm not saying creationism is wrong as a fact, but rather that believing evolution doesn't "exist" is a delusion rather than an opinion. The two aren't mutually exclusive as a higher species may well have been involved in engineering our species on this planet in the same way we can engineer microbes and bacteria, but no matter whether that is true or not evolution has happened and will continue to happen.

Another example of opinion vs delusion is with music, games, tv, films and so one. Saying "I don't like it" or "I dislike it" or "that was the least enjoyable experience of my life" is an opinion. Saying "that IS the worst game/film/song/etc. ever made" or "anyone who likes this is wrong" is a delusion as the facts are there's always a worse example of game/film/song/etc. out there and other people may well think it's great as their tastes would differ to those belonging to the deluded one.

Thursday, October 11, 2012

ESFER25 wrote : I'll be spending the next 6 months researching the connection between Gangnam Style and a discussion about facts and opinions.

Friday, October 12, 2012

reminds me of the days when I first came

Friday, October 12, 2012

Well Brad, see the virtue of brevity.

I think your messages might sometimes be lost in translation, or rather in the processing of the vast amount of text.

Honestly, Alex's words were only on mark with mine at an angle. I just needed an instance to justify reciting his title. He's practically my idol, after all.

The problem is that if I had just made a broad statement like that without a lot of information backing it up, it'd basically undo itself since it'd be an opinion without substantiation rather than an informed perspective.

That's the distinction in terminology I'm trying to address.

Friday, October 12, 2012

JayREEZY wrote :
NOTE: Sorry if I sound offensive, I'm actually totally enjoying this debate.

You aren't alone, not at all. *intense laughter*

Friday, October 12, 2012

Couldn't really be bothered to read that debate though let's not get into a debate, let's get into that OPPPPPPAAAAAAAAAAAA mood

Friday, October 12, 2012

Anyone has any idea how to rename this? This isn't Gangnam style thread anymore .

Saturday, October 13, 2012

elektronas wrote : Anyone has any idea how to rename this? This isn't Gangnam style thread anymore .

Does it even matter?