ZEQ2 Lite

Friday, November 30, 2012

TRL wrote :

what the heck? That clearly shows that he doesn't want you to spread the download any further. And then you go and post a download here. You're a giant douchebag.

okay sorry. Please remove the quote.

Friday, November 30, 2012

qwerty wrote :

TRL wrote :

what the heck? That clearly shows that he doesn't want you to spread the download any further. And then you go and post a download here. You're a giant douchebag.

okay sorry. Please remove the quote.

You need to do more than remove the quote. You need to take it down from download.

Friday, November 30, 2012

@qwerty
Like Zeth said dude the svn is public you are free to add downloads of those files

Friday, November 30, 2012

qwerty don't worry,, if the SVN is public doesn't matter if you want take his game and show us ..

nothing is bad

reupload in your page.. or maybe show us the svn LINK..

Friday, November 30, 2012

Wow you guys are a bunch of egotistical bastards.
Just for your own selfish gain you will ignore the wishes of the the creator, xatoku.

If he took down the download, that's saying something. Maybe he wants some people to be able to download but not have acces to the svn. I don't know there must be a reason.

If you want the game, just go to his chat and ask him. He's not a bad guy.

Friday, November 30, 2012

Why would anyone want to play it currently anyhow? Judging from the screenshots in this thread.. It's really incomplete.

Friday, November 30, 2012

TRL wrote : Wow you guys are a bunch of egotistical bastards.
Just for your own selfish gain you will ignore the wishes of the the creator, xatoku.

If he took down the download, that's saying something. Maybe he wants some people to be able to download but not have acces to the svn. I don't know there must be a reason.

If you want the game, just go to his chat and ask him. He's not a bad guy.

As far as access to the SVN, he only wanted people he trusted to have access to it and test it with him when he asked them to, and that is why I had to get an account and register it with him to gain access, and it is probably why he did not announce to any of us (even in the chat) that he made it public again. He was totally unaware that people like qwerty had found out about it becoming public.

And it is actually more difficult than you think it is to get into his chat. He's added a keyword, so you cannot just enter the chat. The only way to contact him in the IRC is to PM him. But there's another roadblock with this. SOMEONE had been sent in to "spy" on the activity of Xatoku (won't say who), and that was a terrible method I never imagined Brad to resort to. Because of this, Xatoku trusts hardly anyone from this community.

@Anyone who sides with Brad on the subject of the public SVN-

All you guys are doing is reinforcing Xatoku's distrust. Regardless of whether the SVN was public, if he didn't announce it, it means he didn't want it to BE KNOWN. This tactic is similar to what ZEQ2-Lite was about. Remember all the uninformed participators that joined this community for the promise of a game and not willing to contribute? Well, Xatoku doesn't want the same kind of publicity. He wants to show progress that he thinks is worth showing.

It's a general rule that if something is not disclosed voluntarily, it means that they don't want it to be known. It makes qwerty look nosy. It makes him look like he has no morals. It makes him look like a news reporter digging for dirt on people just for publicity.

Branks wrote : Why would anyone want to play it currently anyhow? Judging from the screenshots in this thread.. It's really incomplete.

Exactly why he didn't want it to be played by the public. He wanted to develop it and test it before a public release. He hit a snag in funds, and put off development for a while. Whenever he had a new update he wanted to test, he asked the people in his chat to try it out with him.

In case anyone didn't know, Xatoku had some progress with the Alpha release (up to Raditz) that he had scrapped to redo it all from scratch.

EDIT: I think I should also add that fan-made games should only be reviewed with the permission of the game developer.

Recently, there was (I believe) a German magazine writer that found ZEQ2-Lite in the chat. You know what he did? He asked for input on what ZEQ2-Lite is about. He didn't just lurk around and write stuff down off the bat. He ASKED for permission to have it published if the project was acceptable for the magazine. Now, why does qwerty go and just publicize someone's work without getting permission to do so?

Friday, November 30, 2012

what the heck? That clearly shows that he doesn't want you to spread the download any further. And then you go and post a download here. You're a giant douchebag.

As far as access to the SVN, he only wanted people he trusted to have access to it and test it with him when he asked them to, and that is why I had to get an account and register it with him to gain access, and it is probably why he did not announce to any of us (even in the chat) that he made it public again. He was totally unaware that people like qwerty had found out about it becoming public.

In internet rationality, qwerty was acting accordingly. It really doesn't matter what Xatoku wishes to happen or not, the files were already available publicly for anyone to dabble with. Just as when ZEQ2 was leaked multiple times over its lifetime, he needs to learn to embrace exposure rather than try and condemn it. These are basic lessons/experiences that almost all independently developed mods/games have to go through.

I'll host the files myself if I have to. At this point, Xatoku is the rich kid down the street that was careless and misplaced one of his new gadgets. When he finds out the neighbor kids are playing with it, he selfishly demands it back despite there being no harm being done. The point is that community will always trump shallow, unsupported individual interests ANY day of the week.

Wow you guys are a bunch of egotistical bastards.
Just for your own selfish gain you will ignore the wishes of the the creator, xatoku.

Xatoku is not a position to receive remorse from anyone. His development and social communication habits are exceedingly close-minded and borderline tyrannical. He does not acknowledge outside assistance and only accepts a close group of uninformed individuals who then are disillusioned into a sense of self-entitlement and pseudo-mutual-respect. The foundation for his project is based on nothing more than self-imposed gain and glory for a single-minded end result. There are no noble scruples in his management hierarchy and yet you expect others to bend on whim to his HORRIBLE behaviors? That's insane.

If he took down the download, that's saying something. Maybe he wants some people to be able to download but not have acces to the svn. I don't know there must be a reason.

As goes the age-old problem with Xatoku, reasons and explanations are never given. If they are or are even MILDLY contested (with logical supporting claims), they are immediately deleted, discarded, and ignored without further supplement.

If he cannot support himself, there's no reason to support him.

If you want the game, just go to his chat and ask him. He's not a bad guy.

Kind of difficult when he bans users on the spot for making comments or suggestions he disagrees with (some for just joining the channel and having the wrong name). Relatively speaking, he IS the bad guy. There's little spinning around that. I have an entire arsenal of heavily explained posts in this thread proving that point to a presently irrefutable state.

One who cannot intelligently explain themselves and handle conflicting responses or constructive criticism should not be in the business of creation and design.

And it is actually more difficult than you think it is to get into his chat. He's added a keyword, so you cannot just enter the chat. The only way to contact him in the IRC is to PM him. But there's another roadblock with this. SOMEONE had been sent in to "spy" on the activity of Xatoku (won't say who), and that was a terrible method I never imagined Brad to resort to. Because of this, Xatoku trusts hardly anyone from this community.

I fear that your involvement with Xatoku has left you over-zealous and misinformed. No "spy" was sent. To even suggest something like that with a serious face or imply that something like that would even matter for such a low-rung, low-rate project is utterly ridiculous.

I can try and nice about this till the end of time, but at the end of the day, the facts remain. The difference is night and day. I have years more experience, tomes of technical knowledge advantages, a hunger and goal for adapting into the industry commercially, and conceptual designs and plans beyond re-hashing/re-implementing existing ideas. Xatoku is not even on my daily radar.

However, just because someone has an enormous experience/knowledge expansion over someone else doesn't mean you should belittle them. This is one of the whole reasons I tried to get involved with Xatoku. I humbled myself in the situation despite there being ZERO gain for me and ONLY gain for him. Comparatively, it would be like if Michael Jordan came to your house to teach you basketball and you turned him away, got a restraining order, and then punished anyone who associated with him -- WITHOUT ANY JUSTIFIABLE REASON OR EXPLANATION.

Xatoku may be a socialally awkward fellow, but I don't wish ill of him. Actions speak for themselves. I've never released him or any one of his supporters on IRC or these forums. I've never deleted a single comment in the blog, forums, or moddb relating to discussion on this topic either. In contrast, he actually HAS released users, HAS deleted comments, and REFUSES to address the topic.

All you guys are doing is reinforcing Xatoku's distrust. Regardless of whether the SVN was public, if he didn't announce it, it means he didn't want it to BE KNOWN. This tactic is similar to what ZEQ2-Lite was about. Remember all the uninformed participators that joined this community for the promise of a game and not willing to contribute? Well, Xatoku doesn't want the same kind of publicity. He wants to show progress that he thinks is worth showing.

The only reason he's becoming even more misguided and reclusive is because of his own self-doubt. For goodness sake he practically deletes any comment that has a modicum of negative implication as it is. He needs to re-adapt his outlook. I'm not saying he has to bind to an existing perspective, but what he has going right now is a crooked path that about a million inexperienced mod developers have gone down. I'm also not saying he cannot succeed with his current mentality -- only that he's bringing ALL of these complications/issues upon himself by not accepting (or justifying the lack of) support of any kind.

If he kept his project to himself, that's another story, but the moment you have a public page online or involve a "community", you have to be willing to open your doors. You can't put a Ferris Wheel in a park and not expect people to feel contempt when only the highly-praising privileged are allowed to even look or comment.

It's a general rule that if something is not disclosed voluntarily, it means that they don't want it to be known. It makes qwerty look nosy. It makes him look like he has no morals. It makes him look like a news reporter digging for dirt on people just for publicity.

No, that's not a general rule. You cannot just make up implied moral standards when it comes to technical and internet matters. It's quite the opposite of that. The link was exposed by the service as part of HOW THE SERVICE WORKS. Xatoku's lack of comprehension of the situation is the only thing at fault here; moreover, his reaction to handling how others acted on his mistake actually IS a show of poor character. Why do I know this? I've made the exact same mistakes in the past with ZEQ2. Seriously. This is all a broken record to me. Every single action Xatoku has done is just a mirror of ZEQ2 2003-2004 management mistakes I PERSONALLY MADE. I'm trying to actually do the MORALLY RESPONSIBLE thing by not letting mistakes of history repeat.

Bucky. It is becoming clear that you may lack the knowledge and understanding of this situation and its intricacies to really respond in the manner you are. If you don't know the full history of ZEQ2, inner motives behind views/actions against Xatoku, and overall interrelational and development practices/standards, your credibility comes into question. You are simply some guy making remarks about a field you have NO expertise and NO experience in comparatively.

That's one of the core issues with many people online as a whole. They believe themselves to be self-entitled to make any claim or take any action of any kind without any consequence. Realize that if you shut off / ignore the world around, you cannot expect to play the part of the wounded lamb when the world eventually runs into your affairs.

Recently, there was (I believe) a German magazine writer that found ZEQ2-Lite in the chat. You know what he did? He asked for input on what ZEQ2-Lite is about. He didn't just lurk around and write stuff down off the bat. He ASKED for permission to have it published if the project was acceptable for the magazine. Now, why does qwerty go and just publicize someone's work without getting permission to do so?

Hello. Welcome to the internet. This is its entire purpose of functionality. Openness of knowledge and re-usage/distribution of information and content is exactly what it's all about. Anything else and we'd just have a micro-managed bureaucracy like the non-online world operates.

I'll take un-contained growth and free expansion over controlled limited usage any day. As was the case with my previous debate, history again tells us what does and does not work.

Friday, November 30, 2012

He may not be smart enough to handle all of this. Let him be. I know it's the way of the internet to act like preying wolves, but if you personally know the guy, cut him some slack. Don't force him into anything.

Friday, November 30, 2012

Okay, Brad, since it is clear to you that I do not know the full extent of the issue here, how do you expect me to ever know? There's obviously bias on both sides.

I've never believed you wished ill of anyone, and I don't see you starting now. The thing you don't *seem* to understand is that "Rich Kid Xatoku's gadget" was removed from its resting place, rather than being misplaced. He knew where it was, he left it on the table in the kitchen, assuming no one was going to snoop around and take it to be shown to friends.

There's this thing called etiquette, which is what the internet generally ignores, but in many places, is generally enforced. I mean, if the magazine writer had the mentality of asking permission before posting a review of ZEQ2-Lite, what gives qwerty, RealDeal, or anyone else the right (rather than the ability) to put up reviews to games that the developers of the games have no idea about.

The best thing qwerty could have done is link to Xatoku's page on ModDB or something, rather than putting up links to games that can't be considered complete in the slightest. There's no way to die in ZWC, so what fun is it? What makes it worthwhile to play?

Also, I don't know what you consider "a little birdie," but to me, that means someone is feeding the sender information.

@TRL - Who exactly are you referring to?

Friday, November 30, 2012

qwerty did nothing wrong linkxp , the svn was public regardless of xatokus wishes , you expect these things on the internet to happen

what spy ? I think you should take the name now that you mentioned it , or its declared as fake and ticklish , or maybe xatoku made up the story , because clearly Brad has nothing to gain from spying such a project or individual

I agree with Brad completely , he has no room for listening , I my self got released instantly some time ago
for just expressing my opinion

Friday, November 30, 2012

awesome ham it......... now I have to remove this waste from my site

thanks a lot

Friday, November 30, 2012

najeeb wrote : qwerty did nothing wrong linkxp , the svn was public regardless of xatokus wishes , you expect these things on the internet to happen

what spy ? I think you should take the name now that you mentioned it , or its declared as fake and ticklish , or maybe xatoku made up the story , because clearly Brad has nothing to gain from spying such a project or individual

I agree with Brad completely , he has no room for listening , I my self got released instantly some time ago
for just expressing my opinion

Zay. Zay was the one...

Anyway, while I have nothing against Zay, I didn't like hearing that he had something to do with it. I don't think you understand WHY Xatoku closed up the chat...

I believe that Brad was trying to find some kind of reason from Xatoku's breaking away from ZEQ2-Lite, but because of this "little birdie," Xatoku decided to lock it up.

There are some subjects people don't want to discuss, because they don't like to hear the same spouting of logic behind this or that that he heard from others.

I've been down this road many times myself, and I find it distasteful to keep hearing the same arguments over and over again, even if they are right. It's the fact that it feels like an hour long lecture every 15 minutes of the debate that makes me dislike it so much.

There are also things that are sensitive topics for anyone, not just Xatoku. It's not that he doesn't like opposition, he just doesn't like to discuss topics that he's had enough debate of (One of them being on the topic of open-sourced content, which is likely to be related to this scenario).

Friday, November 30, 2012

Anyway, while I have nothing against Zay, I didn't like hearing that he had something to do with it.

Zay saw a available svn and posted it , nothing wrong with that.

I don't think you understand WHY Xatoku closed up the chat...

Yes I do , I have read Each and Every post from Brad and other sensible individuals on this thread and I was present during the start of this feud as well.

I believe that Brad was trying to find some kind of reason from Xatoku's breaking away from ZEQ2-Lite, but because of this "little birdie," Xatoku decided to lock it up.

that's what you believe , that could be what Xatoku thinks , nothing to do with actual reality.

There are also things that are sensitive topics for anyone, not just Xatoku. It's not that he doesn't like opposition, he just doesn't like to discuss topics that he's had enough debate of (One of them being on the topic of open-sourced content, which is likely to be related to this scenario).

Nothing sensitive about this , especially when its a mere internet feud "I HAVE BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD TOO" but its nothing that's effecting my actual life
it's not about opposition , no one likes that , he simply disregards any sort of opinion that he may not like and acts in a borderline tyrannic way.

The best way to end this is to delete this thread.

Friday, November 30, 2012

I don't understand why you have to give Xatoku a hard time. He wanted to be left to do this his own way, but we kept bringing up the issue, and it's tiring, even to me, to have to deal with such infidelity. I would have preferred the chat stayed open, but tension rose and threats were made. I would have preferred the SVN to stay up, but wishes were denied and self-indulgence was prioritized. There seems to be no end to this struggle.

It's just as ZEQ2-Lite was. We always said, "it'll be done when it's done" to the players (and the players try to play the latest revision, and we purposely broke some gameplay elements to prevent this), just as Xatoku has said to us, and we try to pull tricks like this (and has made his own way of preventing us to play it).

Friday, November 30, 2012

Zay. Zay was the one...

Anyway, while I have nothing against Zay, I didn't like hearing that he had something to do with it. I don't think you understand WHY Xatoku closed up the chat...

I believe that Brad was trying to find some kind of reason from Xatoku's breaking away from ZEQ2-Lite, but because of this "little birdie," Xatoku decided to lock it up

a Big bang Kamehameha from Zeth is coming straight for you link

Friday, November 30, 2012

Linkxp500 wrote :

najeeb wrote : qwerty did nothing wrong linkxp , the svn was public regardless of xatokus wishes , you expect these things on the internet to happen

what spy ? I think you should take the name now that you mentioned it , or its declared as fake and ticklish , or maybe xatoku made up the story , because clearly Brad has nothing to gain from spying such a project or individual

I agree with Brad completely , he has no room for listening , I my self got released instantly some time ago
for just expressing my opinion

Zay. Zay was the one...

Anyway, while I have nothing against Zay, I didn't like hearing that he had something to do with it. I don't think you understand WHY Xatoku closed up the chat...

I believe that Brad was trying to find some kind of reason from Xatoku's breaking away from ZEQ2-Lite, but because of this "little birdie," Xatoku decided to lock it up.

There are some subjects people don't want to discuss, because they don't like to hear the same spouting of logic behind this or that that he heard from others.

I've been down this road many times myself, and I find it distasteful to keep hearing the same arguments over and over again, even if they are right. It's the fact that it feels like an hour long lecture every 15 minutes of the debate that makes me dislike it so much.

There are also things that are sensitive topics for anyone, not just Xatoku. It's not that he doesn't like opposition, he just doesn't like to discuss topics that he's had enough debate of (One of them being on the topic of open-sourced content, which is likely to be related to this scenario).

I don't understand why you have to give Xatoku a hard time. He wanted to be left to do this his own way, but we kept bringing up the issue, and it's tiring, even to me, to have to deal with such infidelity. I would have preferred the chat stayed open, but tension rose and threats were made. I would have preferred the SVN to stay up, but wishes were denied and self-indulgence was prioritized. There seems to be no end to this struggle.

It's just as ZEQ2-Lite was. We always said, "it'll be done when it's done" to the players (and the players try to play the latest revision, and we purposely broke some gameplay elements to prevent this), just as Xatoku has said to us, and we try to pull tricks like this (and has made his own way of preventing us to play it).

1. Publicizing a name and giving in to Najeeb's inappropiate, childish demands was as much of a mistake as mentioning this ridiculous spy theory to begin with. I'll cut the part where I whine short, and just want to let you know that I'm disappointed.

2. Now we get on to how you forgot to include details to make it look worse than it is. Because honestly, if this did happen AT ALL, it could have still happened two ways, which are totally different.

Convo A:

Zay: Hey Brad, visiting Xatoku's channel, maybe I can find out his reasons/talk sense into him

Brad: Okay

Convo B(The one you're implying):

Brad: I ORDER YOU to spy on Xatoku, report back every action he ever does and totally keep me informed so I can crush him and his forces and win this foolish internet war!(Sounds like Brad, right? -sarcasm-)

Zay: YES, MASTER!

Note, that this post is full of frustration. I hope you still get what I mean.

EDIT: Last time I've checked, nothing was broken on purpose, just ripped out to be re-written. Do some research before causing controversy on purpose... Which is what I think you are trying to do here.

Friday, November 30, 2012

I don't understand why you have to give Xatoku a hard time.

No one is giving him a hard time.

He wanted to be left to do this his own way, but we kept bringing up the issue, and it's tiring, even to me, to have to deal with such infidelity.

You have to deal with nothing , you drag your self in the issue for no reason , stay away from the thread if you dislike this , various other people bring this thread back to life again not Brad.

I would have preferred the chat stayed open, but tension rose and threats were made. I would have preferred the SVN to stay up, but wishes were denied and self-indulgence was prioritized. There seems to be no end to this struggle.

The threats could be individuals from either fanbase to ignite the situation and threats won't even matter on the internet , pointless to debate on that.

It's just as ZEQ2-Lite was. We always said, "it'll be done when it's done" to the players (and the players try to play the latest revision, and we purposely broke some gameplay elements to prevent this), just as Xatoku has said to us, and we try to pull tricks like this (and has made his own way of preventing us to play it).

Zeq2lites case is way different

IT has been confirmed by 3 devs that the game is not broken on purpose , most features are either being rebuilt or are being removed for testing purposes

Friday, November 30, 2012

Maszek wrote : 1. Publicizing a name and giving in to Najeeb's inappropiate, childish demands was as much of a mistake as mentioning this ridiculous spy theory to begin with. I'll cut the part where I whine short, and just want to let you know that I'm disappointed.

2. Now we get on to how you forgot to include details to make it look worse than it is. Because honestly, if this did happen AT ALL, it could have still happened two ways, which are totally different.

Convo A:

Zay: Hey Brad, visiting Xatoku's channel, maybe I can find out his reasons/talk sense into him

Brad: Okay

Convo B(The one you're implying):

Brad: I ORDER YOU to spy on Xatoku, report back every action he ever does and totally keep me informed so I can crush him and his forces and win this foolish internet war!(Sounds like Brad, right? -sarcasm-)

Zay: YES, MASTER!

Note, that this post is full of frustration. I hope you still get what I mean.

I get exactly what you mean, and I admit I don't know many details at all on this, but the locking up part happened RIGHT AFTER this occurrence, I assure you.

It was on a Sunday. In the morning, I was able to speak with Xatoku in his chat. By the evening however, I was flipping out because I did not know what was going on with Xatoku's channel requiring a keyword. What do you expect me to do? If Xatoku twisted the truth, I would think that Brad was to blame. If I asked Brad, he'd say Xatoku was entirely out of line.

I don't believe Brad is a bad guy. I don't think Xatoku was entirely in the right. Brad's superior experience and intelligence urges me to think of him as level-headed, but that doesn't mean he won't exclude the ability to use his knowledge to his advantage, given he has firm belief in an opinion. Xatoku is inexperienced and young, but he has expressed his dissent for many instances of conflicting goals between him and Brad.

I still can't fathom Brad even suggesting "a little birdie," which is why I DID name the guy. I don't think he KNEW what he was doing was wrong. I think Zay was trying to do some good, and possibly didn't think of whether what he said could endanger the ties between the projects.

But the fact remains that Xatoku acts on impulse. If this is the case, what was anyone thinking when they did something to cause him to act irrationally?

If Brad did such a thing as send in the birdie, he's apparently not thinking straight, especially when he PMs someone loyal to Xatoku completely, which is itself not likely. Whatever happened, and however it was distorted, Brad apparently stepped over some tripwire to trigger Xatoku's retaliation.

Of course, since Xatoku is not experienced like Brad, he's likely to make mistakes like that. He'll handle it as he would anything else. But to cause him further grief by prolonging this discussion and continue spreading the work he has poured into his project is just plain insensitive.

Brad, I do think you mean well when you say you want history to not repeat, but why continue to offer him a sandwich when he's not hungry? It ends up thrown into the dirt.

It's apparent that I am biased toward Xatoku, but I really don't want this struggle to continue. Even Xatoku just wants to be left to himself in his own little corner. Why can't people respect that? Even if he is a devil to you all, he doesn't consider the community the same way.

I'm trying my best to keep myself level-headed, so I'd rather not taint my appearance any more than I have because of this subject. So, I'm done here.

Brad, or anyone else who wants to discuss this topic with, PM me here or on the IRC. I'd like to clear things up for people who are curious as to why I am thinking and speaking the way I am. I'm also probably being irrational in my speech, so forgive me if I seem out of line.

Friday, November 30, 2012

Brad, or anyone else who wants to discuss this topic with, PM me here or on the IRC. I'd like to clear things up for people who are curious as to why I am thinking and speaking the way I am. I'm also probably being irrational in my speech, so forgive me if I seem out of line.

It's apparent that I am biased toward Xatoku,

you answered it

Friday, November 30, 2012

najeeb wrote :

Brad, or anyone else who wants to discuss this topic with, PM me here or on the IRC. I'd like to clear things up for people who are curious as to why I am thinking and speaking the way I am. I'm also probably being irrational in my speech, so forgive me if I seem out of line.

It's apparent that I am biased toward Xatoku,

you answered it

And your post made no sense. Refer to how I told Bucky he's out of line, applies to you as well.

Now, Bucky. Brad is not forcing an opinion here with his superior intelligence. Not in the way you mean, anyway. He is simply trying to present the story as well as he can. While it does sound biased at some points, it is not his intention I believe.

As for discussing this in PM, that's as bad as Najeeb's "delete the thread" suggestion. Just keep your thoughts level-headed and clear(unlike I did in my last post).

Friday, November 30, 2012

Maszek wrote :

najeeb wrote :

Brad, or anyone else who wants to discuss this topic with, PM me here or on the IRC. I'd like to clear things up for people who are curious as to why I am thinking and speaking the way I am. I'm also probably being irrational in my speech, so forgive me if I seem out of line.

It's apparent that I am biased toward Xatoku,

you answered it

And your post made no sense. Refer to how I told Bucky he's out of line, applies to you as well.

Now, Bucky. Brad is not forcing an opinion here with his superior intelligence. Not in the way you mean, anyway. He is simply trying to present the story as well as he can. While it does sound biased at some points, it is not his intention I believe.

As for discussing this in PM, that's as bad as Najeeb's "delete the thread" suggestion. Just keep your thoughts level-headed and clear(unlike I did in my last post).

He stated that he is biased and then asked us to pm him for why he speaks the way he does , I simply showed that there is no need for doing so as he answered the question prior , the post makes perfect sense.

Also I completely disagree , Deleting the thread is a good idea , This thread is like a "THORN" that keeps getting bumped by one or the other , deleting it will not only eliminate any source for further argument about this hopeless subject but will also reduce tension between the two groups.

-------

RealDeal wrote :

a Big bang Kamehameha from Zeth is coming straight for you link :*laughing out loud*: :*laughing out loud*: :*laughing out loud*:

Friday, November 30, 2012

He may not be smart enough to handle all of this. Let him be. I know it's the way of the internet to act like preying wolves, but if you personally know the guy, cut him some slack. Don't force him into anything.

Nobody is being forced into anything. If you lost your vision sticking a fork into an electric outlet and you see see a kid about to do the same, it stands to reason that you should feel SOME moral responsibility to try and stop / teach them otherwise -- even if they resist your help and even if their parents frown upon it. Doing what's right isn't always what's easy or even what's popular.

It's not like I'm saying Xatoku has to absolutely accept my guidance. I simply want to be a voice among the others that offers input. As long as what I'm saying is acknowledged reasonably, I've no further desire in forcible elucidation.

Okay, Brad, since it is clear to you that I do not know the full extent of the issue here, how do you expect me to ever know? There's obviously bias on both sides.

Please explain the bias presented on my side. Every comment I've made is provided with paragraphs of facts and reason. I'm acting appropriate and objective to information and not performing any outrageous backlash actions despite being villainized to a degree.

Xatoku has provided NOTHING in terms of substance on his side of this debate. Furthermore, he's behaving erratically by banning and performing content control on his public outlets to ensure that no one can ever say anything that might be construed as negative.

Bias suggests that one side is playing to their cause without consideration of opposing or alternative views. I am 100% open to any logic-bound perspectives Xatoku has to offer whereas he is fixated on his own management and design methods as being ironclad and indisputable.

There is only one side showing bias in this scenario.

I've never believed you wished ill of anyone, and I don't see you starting now. The thing you don't *seem* to understand is that "Rich Kid Xatoku's gadget" was removed from its resting place, rather than being misplaced. He knew where it was, he left it on the table in the kitchen, assuming no one was going to snoop around and take it to be shown to friends.

That's not how this situation played out though. Imagine you signed up for a storage building in real life. Then one month you decided not to pay so they sold off the unit in an auction. You have ZERO rights to get upset at the contents of your storage building being disclosed or even given away if you didn't meet up with your end of the service agreement.

There's this thing called etiquette, which is what the internet generally ignores, but in many places, is generally enforced. I mean, if the magazine writer had the mentality of asking permission before posting a review of ZEQ2-Lite, what gives qwerty, RealDeal, or anyone else the right (rather than the ability) to put up reviews to games that the developers of the games have no idea about.

Etiquette is not an all-encompassing concept though, Bucky. It differs depending on the context and environment you are dealing with. Etiquette doesn't just mean "be nice and fair and good". It's about following the proper standards and rules in a particular situation.

This "magazine writer" you keep bringing up actually did NOT have to ask to put any demo in his article just as someone writing a review (for ANYTHING) definitely would not have to (or need to) ask. As a matter of fact, the main reason he made contact was just to see if any additional information could be gathered -- not because of a matter of protocol. Requiring permission to write something about something else would make the internet's free expression ideology moot and bring the exchange of ideas to a crawl.

The best thing qwerty could have done is link to Xatoku's page on ModDB or something, rather than putting up links to games that can't be considered complete in the slightest. There's no way to die in ZWC, so what fun is it? What makes it worthwhile to play?

This debate isn't about whether ZWC is a game nor if it's ready to play. The only thing this discussion is concerning is if qwerty should feel morally responsible for posting a download that was inadvertently made public (and furthermore prematurely privatized for unexplained seemingly self-involved reasons).

I've explained in detail in my previous post how qwerty did nothing wrong whatsoever.

Also, I don't know what you consider "a little birdie," but to me, that means someone is feeding the sender information.

Who said anything about a little birdie?

I agree with Brad completely

I'm going to say this outright to clear things up. I'm not saying everyone (or anyone) HAS to agree with me. In all honesty, I'd prefer if people actually didn't agree with me in cases where they can support their views. Just ensure you actually have verifiable opposing information on the subject so that it can be presented in a manner that be clearly discussed and debated. Use facts, cited sources, and some kind of logical rhythm/reason with your statements if you don't agree.

Zay. Zay was the one...

Anyway, while I have nothing against Zay, I didn't like hearing that he had something to do with it. I don't think you understand WHY Xatoku closed up the chat...

I don't really know Zay. He messages me randomly in off cases having some 'great idea' he wants to pitch, but beyond that I've never really spoken to him. He asks questions and I answer. That's about it.

I believe that Brad was trying to find some kind of reason from Xatoku's breaking away from ZEQ2-Lite, but because of this "little birdie," Xatoku decided to lock it up.

Most people would call this a knee-jerk paranoid reaction.

There are some subjects people don't want to discuss, because they don't like to hear the same spouting of logic behind this or that that he heard from others

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The only subjects that are not touched by logic and reason are those where the person arguing cannot substantiate and defend themselves -- either by part of ignorance or through actual lack of support to their claims. It's how intelligent people separate fact from fiction and moreover how science and the world itself goes 'round.

No debate in history is justified by "because I said so".

I've been down this road many times myself, and I find it distasteful to keep hearing the same arguments over and over again, even if they are right. It's the fact that it feels like an hour long lecture every 15 minutes of the debate that makes me dislike it so much.

Ideally, beating the notion repeatedly will cause a fragment of it to stick.

There are also things that are sensitive topics for anyone, not just Xatoku. It's not that he doesn't like opposition, he just doesn't like to discuss topics that he's had enough debate of (One of them being on the topic of open-sourced content, which is likely to be related to this scenario).

Again, you should not apply such broad generalizations about "everyone". Sure, some immutable belief zealots will close down and refuse to acknowledge other sides of arguments based on their beliefs, but one cannot simply go and say that EVERY immutable belief person is close-minded. Not everyone has a "sensitive topic" or refuses to discuss matters like civil gentlemen.

The best way to end this is to delete this thread.

Also I completely disagree , Deleting the thread is a good idea , This thread is like a "THORN" that keeps getting bumped ... also reduce tension between the two groups.

You were on a role with an iteration of points, but you kind of went overboard here. Just because something is complex or difficult to deal with doesn't mean we should take the easiest way out. If the issue isn't resolved, the wound will just be left to fester silently -- slowly splitting and becoming more problematic to deal with as people take unnecessary sides.

I don't understand why you have to give Xatoku a hard time. He wanted to be left to do this his own way, but we kept bringing up the issue, and it's tiring, even to me, to have to deal with such infidelity.

He shouldn't have a public project with a growing community if he wants to be "left to do things on his own". Those are exact opposite directions.

I would have preferred the chat stayed open, but tension rose and threats were made. I would have preferred the SVN to stay up, but wishes were denied and self-indulgence was prioritized. There seems to be no end to this struggle.

If you have such clarity on the situation and Xatoku's actions as being in the wrong, how can you openly support him or his project? Does your role in his council of trustees or the glitter sprinkled around randomly in updates really entice you to look past his brazen travesties?

It's just as ZEQ2-Lite was. We always said, "it'll be done when it's done" to the players (and the players try to play the latest revision, and we purposely broke some gameplay elements to prevent this), just as Xatoku has said to us, and we try to pull tricks like this (and has made his own way of preventing us to play it).

It's funny people sat that. Gameplay was never "intentionally broken" in ZEQ2-lite so others wouldn't play it. I suppose it's often easier to explain this to the masses in this way rather than attempting to explain that core system rewrites involve taking steps backwards before their advances can be merited and progress can be move forward. Code you see on the SVN is a live "work in progress" kind of setup and thus can go from working to not working on a whim intentionally (or unintentionally) as exchanges between programmers happen.

Zay: Hey Brad, visiting Xatoku's channel, maybe I can find out his reasons/talk sense into him
Brad: Okay

Did Zay put this in #ZEQ2? That looks like almost a carbon copy of things he says and I say in response. Usually it's just a brief acknowledgment or answer to a random question. I wouldn't doubt if this was exactly how it went down.

IT has been confirmed by 3 devs that the game is not broken on purpose , most features are either being rebuilt or are being removed for testing purposes

Thank you. I knew someone had to have been paying attention!

If Xatoku twisted the truth, I would think that Brad was to blame.

Wait, what? I barely know what's going on with this "Zay" matter. Again, I hardly even know the guy. Just one of a dozen users that randomly message me on IRC that I try and help when I can. How would Xatoku misunderstanding a situation I had no part in put me at blame exactly?

If I asked Brad, he'd say Xatoku was entirely out of line.

I don't even know what this relates to. The only areas where Xatoku has been out of line is his lack of well-mannered communication, reception of critiques/knowledge/support, and handling of his own mistakes.

I don't believe Brad is a bad guy. I don't think Xatoku was entirely in the right. Brad's superior experience and intelligence urges me to think of him as level-headed, but that doesn't mean he won't exclude the ability to use his knowledge to his advantage, given he has firm belief in an opinion. Xatoku is inexperienced and young, but he has expressed his dissent for many instances of conflicting goals between him and Brad.

I'm not some kind of omnipotent being. Just a guy trying to help a fellow developer in need -- be it directly or indirectly. If Carmack approached me with tips on improving myself as a developer, I wouldn't HESITATE to be all ears and hear him out.

I still can't fathom Brad even suggesting "a little birdie," which is why I DID name the guy. I don't think he KNEW what he was doing was wrong. I think Zay was trying to do some good, and possibly didn't think of whether what he said could endanger the ties between the projects.

When was "a little birdie" even mentioned? It sounds like some flavor text I probably put to fluff up an expression in an earlier part of this thread. Also, Zay was not by far the only person who approached me about trying to "talk some sense into Xatoku". Lots of people in IRC tried to give it a shot to reach a peaceful resolution.

But the fact remains that Xatoku acts on impulse. If this is the case, what was anyone thinking when they did something to cause him to act irrationally?

From what I can gather from the individuals involved, all were trying to help resolve a situation for projects they felt a brotherhood/community with. They cannot be blamed for having nothing but good intentions in mind.

If Brad did such a thing as send in the birdie, he's apparently not thinking straight, especially when he PMs someone loyal to Xatoku completely, which is itself not likely. Whatever happened, and however it was distorted, Brad apparently stepped over some tripwire to trigger Xatoku's retaliation.

Trust me, if I wanted to send in a "spy", I would have a lot more cunning than that. I'd probably find someone on this forum with a degree of intellect, use an engineered argument paradigm to let them convince themselves they were on Xatoku's side, and then slowly engage in debates over minute details until their fabric of reality contorted to unveil the truth that they were the real mole all along. *dun dun dun*!

Of course, since Xatoku is not experienced like Brad, he's likely to make mistakes like that. He'll handle it as he would anything else. But to cause him further grief by prolonging this discussion and continue spreading the work he has poured into his project is just plain insensitive.

Unrelated, but is it really insensitive to try and save a drowning child?

Brad, I do think you mean well when you say you want history to not repeat, but why continue to offer him a sandwich when he's not hungry? It ends up thrown into the dirt.

Mainly because I have no reason not to try and help. Until I can get a real reason, my persistence ensues.

It's apparent that I am biased toward Xatoku, but I really don't want this struggle to continue. Even Xatoku just wants to be left to himself in his own little corner. Why can't people respect that? Even if he is a devil to you all, he doesn't consider the community the same way.

What he says isn't matching up to the actions he's taking with comment removal and bans.

Brad, or anyone else who wants to discuss this topic with, PM me here or on the IRC. I'd like to clear things up for people who are curious as to why I am thinking and speaking the way I am. I'm also probably being irrational in my speech, so forgive me if I seem out of line.

You don't have to seclude yourself, Bucky. It would be best if we kept everything out in the open lest it appear more cult-like than it should.

As for discussing this in PM, that's as bad as Najeeb's "delete the thread" suggestion. Just keep your thoughts level-headed and clear(unlike I did in my last post)

Oh man. 2 for 2 here! Are you trying to assimilate me ?

Friday, November 30, 2012

why can't you just leave the guy alone ? eh it doesn't matter though stuff happens

Friday, November 30, 2012

That was the longest post I've ever seen from you, Brad. *stunned*

I really just don't want to discuss this subject *right now* because I have more important things to worry about, and I'm just exhausted from trying to think of the appropriate response to others' comments.