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The Next Level

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Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Thursday, August 02, 2012

Greetings all who are a part of my favorite community!

I'd like to apologize for being a nuisance on the forums lately, what with all my talk of change, stopping with the addon packs, bettering ourselves, etc., you get the idea.

I'd like to, except I won't. While I truly want to garner respect from the WHOLE community, and telling someone that what they're doing isn't the best use of their time for the project's progress isn't the best way to do it, I feel it is necessary.

But Skatter, you're making me uncomfortable with this talk of change! Why can't you just let things be?



Well, little Timmy, it's because I care about you, as a community! Wouldn't you love a more robust skill system? How about maps with more life in them? A.I. perhaps?

Will these things happen without change? Nope.

But Skatter, when you post in the topic of my favorite pack-maker, I'm e-scared he's going to rage-quit and I won't get my pack! Do you want to make me cry?



No, little Timmy, I dislike making people cry! In fact, I often worry myself about making people rage-quit! But in fact, if they do quit, it's likely not from my badgering, as I've tried to be as inoffensive as I could! I'd chalk it up to some personal pride issue, one that they'll need to sort out on their own, and I'll wish them luck on their personal growth journey!

But little Timmy, let me also ask you this question:
Don't you think the reason that you so crave these packs is because you feel they'll offer you something new? Something different? Something that "vanilla" ZEQ2-Lite can't give you?

Little Timmy, almost all that you'll get are some models you might not have had, some sounds, and effects. All of the same gameplay, skills, and tactics apply. This isn't new, there's just a new skin on it! It's like re-heating a potato and just adding food coloring, and trying to convince me it's a new meal!

But Skatter, isn't that better than nothing?



Well little Timmy, as long as our current appetite is satisfied by these "leftover potatoes" you call addon packs, we'll never have the courage to move on and cook a full-course meal. That doesn't mean that in the long run those models shouldn't be included, but it means that for now, focusing more on everything else ought to be a priority.

What would you rather have? A complete Dragon Ball Z (or heaven forbid, GT as well....) cast, or the models we currently have(including the ones from these addon makers that are decent enough in quality) but with a better mêlée system, more robust power level system, ally system, new types of skills(like a true Kaioken attack, or Wolf Fang Fist, for instance) blinding, paralyzation, TIME FREEZE!!!!, multiform, other mechanics like grappling, re-addition of power struggles, and more?

We could always work on completing the cast AFTER these things are done, since once they're implemented, a slew of the animations and maybe more will need to be re-done for these characters anyway!

Little Timmy, change isn't bad. It might seem overwhelming, but it's a VERY good thing in this situation.

But Skatter, now I want to help! How can I do this?



Little Timmy, here's what Uncle Bradless has to say:

Zeth wrote : Character models, shading, and texture quality are all at a PLENTY acceptable level in this community. There are a slew of people who have already mastered these aspects, after all.

It's the (particle) effects, maps (models,textures), and character animations that are still very low caliber and in need of a LOT more focus. Better quality and additional characters don't really matter at all by comparison to these!



I'm laying this thread at your feet. It wasn't meant to be condescending, just light-hearted. Forgive me if it came off that way. The future, the next step, the ascension of this project, is in your hands. So we can make packs. Packs that REALLY don't add anything new, since you are stuck with the same skills under a different skin. Same mechanics, techniques, same exact "gameplay" and no real new substance.

This should bother you. Well, unless you're one of the ones who are just content with having X character in. But you'll get bored soon after you get that character. And you know this is the truth. That's why you'll soon look for the next pack. Then the next. And once these pack makers see that their pack has become "Old Hat", they'll get upset. Moreso than me pointing out that their time is better spent on other aspects of development. Then they'll either make a new pack, with a couple of changes, so you'll go crazy over it, or they'll leave. And the cycle will repeat. Don't let the cycle repeat. Push forward. Get out of the loop.

So that is all, community. What's it going to be? I posted this here because it's a discussion. ANYONE should feel free to weigh in. However, I'm going to ask that this be moderated, because slamming each other isn't going to fly in here. We have a major attitude problem lately. It's time to either fix it, or go sit in time-out Razz <-- THAT was meant to be a little condescending, because I'm not sure how all the arrogance around here can be seen as anything other than toddlers throwing temper tantrums Razz

JayREEZY View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Thursday, August 02, 2012

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Smile Basic re-skin addon packs have lost all usefullness to me personally (even for learning purposes).

It's like using a broken microwave; no matter how many new foods you put in it, it's still a broken machine, and needs to be replaced... The food is burnt, and all the seasonings in the world won't make it taste any better.

I'm really liking this change, and despite any hiatus' I've had over this past year, I'll see it through... I'll be there every step of the way. Wink

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Thursday, August 02, 2012

I'm glad to hear it! Animations are greatly needed!

And for anyone else wanting to truly lend a hand toward this, please read the quote from Brad in my above post for an idea on how to help out.

But Skatter! I don't know how to do those things!!!! How will I ever learn!?!?!?!



With some patience, you can check out the Learning Forums here:
http://ZEQ2.com/lite/forums/viewforum.php?f=11

Skimming over these topic titles will show you what the topic is about. From there, it's a matter of reading, absorbing, re-reading, and becoming comfortable enough with the concepts to try and apply them Smile

I'm not an animator (like JayREEZY is), but I'm sure at least one or two people here (perhaps even JayREEZY) that are familiar would might happy to help others learn if you asked them nicely!

Remember! Uncle Skatter says: "Teaching someone else to do something you know how to do doesn't 'steal your thunder' or render you lacking in identifiable function. If you can teach even two people to do what you know, you're MUCH more valuable, because then you've cut the workload per person down a ton!"

RealDeal View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Thursday, August 02, 2012

I'd like to apologize for being a nuisance on the forums lately, what with all my talk of change, stopping with the addon packs, bettering ourselves, etc., you get the idea.



what nuisance did you do?

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Thursday, August 02, 2012

RealDeal wrote :

I'd like to apologize for being a nuisance on the forums lately, what with all my talk of change, stopping with the addon packs, bettering ourselves, etc., you get the idea.



what nuisance did you do?



Well, if someone told you that what you were doing wasn't the best use of your time on a project, you usually do one of two things:

1) Adapt to make the most of what resources you have, contributing more in the areas where you're most needed.
2) Get upset because of feelings, perceived or otherwise.

I just don't want these pack makers to think I don't respect them. I do. And I respect what they're doing, I'm just pointing out that it won't get them very far in the grand scheme of things. They'll eventually fill out the roster, have nothing left to do, and because no one's bragging on them anymore, they'll leave.

At least, the ones doing it for attention will. So in reality, I'm trying to preserve these addon makers as well. These new features will give them new venues to explore, providing them with more utility than they currently have! Very Happy It truly is a win-win situation, if examined properly.

alishan22 View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Thursday, August 02, 2012

Skatter wrote :

RealDeal wrote :

I'd like to apologize for being a nuisance on the forums lately, what with all my talk of change, stopping with the addon packs, bettering ourselves, etc., you get the idea.



what nuisance did you do?



Well, if someone told you that what you were doing wasn't the best use of your time on a project, you usually do one of two things:

1) Adapt to make the most of what resources you have, contributing more in the areas where you're most needed.
2) Get upset because of feelings, perceived or otherwise.

I just don't want these pack makers to think I don't respect them. I do. And I respect what they're doing, I'm just pointing out that it won't get them very far in the grand scheme of things. They'll eventually fill out the roster, have nothing left to do, and because no one's bragging on them anymore, they'll leave.

At least, the ones doing it for attention will. So in reality, I'm trying to preserve these addon makers as well. These new features will give them new venues to explore, providing them with more utility than they currently have! Very Happy It truly is a win-win situation, if examined properly.



Agreed with the 3rd paragraph...

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Thursday, August 02, 2012

alishan22 wrote :
Agreed with the 3rd paragraph...



Well you're more than welcome to contribute more than an agree/disagree statement!

What I'm pushing for here is a new direction. Step 1 was cleaning up all the bickering and unproductive nature that clans brought on. And whether you agreed with it or disagreed with it, it needed to happen.

Step 2? This is it. It's just as necessary, too Smile

TRL View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Thursday, August 02, 2012

Anyone who doesn't completely read Skatter's first post will taste my full blown excruciating wrath!

Shenku RiO Incarnate View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Thursday, August 02, 2012

I agree whole heartedly with this thread, and give my support.

All these competing game packs always struck me as counter productive to the project's goals to a small extent, especially with four or five versions of some characters in some instances when it could be limited down to one or maybe two if they're different sagas...

Too often I see multiple people working on the same characters over and over again, when other characters could be and should be made. For example, no one was working on Videl or Chi-Chi, or even Bulma for that matter, so I took it upon myself to not do a character that was obvious and going to be made time and time again by every fanboi and his cousin...

What the game lacks though is not characters, but systems to support them. In fact, I think that portions of the mythic skills system can be simply extended from existing code. For example, I recently did some testing with the attack files to try some different types of attacks from the standard ones we know currently. The first one was with negative values for costs on an attack, and found that you can create an "attack" that heals your character as it charges. I also figured out how to create a self destruct power, as well as powers that recover fatigue and power. These are simply setup outside the normal from what you would typically see, but required literally no code changes at all. I think that more people should try experimenting with the phys and grfx files to see what else is also possible under the existing systems, then we can simply port those working systems over to the expanded skill system once we begin designing it.

For the most part, I think the skill system might be better off as an extension from the current phys system, rather than a wholly separate system.

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Thursday, August 02, 2012

TRL wrote : Anyone who doesn't completely read Skatter's first post will taste my full blown excruciating wrath!



Haha! I'm glad I read it before I posted! Also glad to have a little unity around here! No pun intended. At least amongst some of us there's a common view Very Happy

Shenku wrote :
For the most part, I think the skill system might be better off as an extension from the current phys system, rather than a wholly separate system.



I was thinking the same thing, once upon a time. Anymore, I'd have to just back you up as you're probably the most familiar with it through just tinkering around!

Still, in the transition to Unity, now's the time to discuss restructure/rewrites/re-EVERYTHING Very Happy

Maszek View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

Skatter wrote :

TRL wrote : Anyone who doesn't completely read Skatter's first post will taste my full blown excruciating wrath!



Haha! I'm glad I read it before I posted! Also glad to have a little unity around here! No pun intended. At least amongst some of us there's a common view Very Happy

Shenku wrote :
For the most part, I think the skill system might be better off as an extension from the current phys system, rather than a wholly separate system.



I was thinking the same thing, once upon a time. Anymore, I'd have to just back you up as you're probably the most familiar with it through just tinkering around!

Still, in the transition to Unity, now's the time to discuss restructure/rewrites/re-EVERYTHING Very Happy



I've thought only ZEQ2 is transferring to Unity, and not Lite?

alishan22 View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

I think the mêlée system should be redesigned and the maps be improved and add more and more life into the maps especially as you said skatter.I think sometime I will also consider contributing to this project.

Wolverine View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

I agree whole heartedly with you.

"Making" so called Addons/gamepacks is nothing more than "editing" the already existing system.Instead of wasting our time editing something one could actually learn how to create. But first of all I find that starting from scratch is very hard and you need lots of interest and self motivation (I.e. if game creation is not your primary field and you have other business to attend to).
But I think all of the people in our community have a life other than this and possibly most of us can't/don't spend enough time on learning new things(maybe I feel like that because I have enough responsibility/worries to attend to).Plus most of us are youngsters and came to know about ZEQ2-lite while searching for a Dragon Ball Z PC game. Transforming game players to game creators can be hard.

and Skatter you are not a nuisance. If there was a "follow" button on this site,I'd follow you Smile

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

Maszek wrote :
I've thought only ZEQ2 is transferring to Unity, and not Lite?



You are correct. What I am proposing is that we shift our focus yet again.

Let me break it down a little:

As some of you know, I spent a lot of time editing attacks, trying to find cooler ways for us to kill each other. I don't have the experience with it that Shenku does, but I learned pretty quickly what limitations we're up against.

Fast forwarding, Brad and I took a look at the code necessary just to expand on the current system and we both felt like a complete rewrite would be easier than wading through what we have. Believe me, I was lost!

Now, rather than re-writing ZEQ2-Lite, wouldn't it be better to move to ZEQ2? I know there are plenty of people here capable of producing ZEQ2 quality. We just need to train our brains to work toward this goal, and not just whatever whimsical goal crops up in our mind. We would NEED to be managed, and given tasks, and they wouldn't always be the tasks we want, but they would push us closer to a fully-featured Dragon Ball Z experience!

alishan22 wrote : I think sometime I will also consider contributing to this project.



Great! And again, all you have to do is look at the first post to see how! Smile

Wolverine wrote : But first of all I find that starting from scratch is very hard and you need lots of interest and self motivation (I.e. if game creation is not your primary field and you have other business to attend to).



I agree with you. It can be pretty overwhelming. And I"m not suggesting that everyone can do it overnight. I'm not even suggesting that everyone can do it! There has to be an interest, and not all will share that Smile

Wolverine wrote : But I think all of the people in our community have a life other than this and possibly most of us can't/don't spend enough time on learning new things(maybe I feel like that because I have enough responsibility/worries to attend to).



I understand this particular point better than you can imagine. I've been largely inactive for a little over two months. This is due to several large changes, not the least of which is some pretty drastic health complications. I have a wife, a job, a house, and several bills, and these complications have made it a little rough. I wouldn't dream of placing ZEQ2 above those priorities. That's just irresponsible. What I am saying is that, once some things have settled, I know that I have a spare hour here or there where I could pursue some development related goals.

Wolverine wrote : Plus most of us are youngsters and came to know about ZEQ2-lite while searching for a Dragon Ball Z PC game. Transforming game players to game creators can be hard.



I can remember another youngster a little over 10 years ago stumbling onto the Bid For Power scene and feeling the same way. I began to edit this and that, and enjoyed it all Smile

Wolverine wrote : and Skatter you are not a nuisance. If there was a "follow" button on this site,I'd follow you Smile



I do appreciate the support, and I ask you ALL to support anyone who decides to step up to this challenge.

Shenku RiO Incarnate View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

Going from a game player to a game creator is not hard at all when you think about it. In fact, I've noticed that many serious game developers who actually want to create games usually start in a small mod community, eventually learning enough that they move on to designing whole games and perhaps eventually becoming a professional much later down the road.

The only factor most unserious game developer wannabes don't take into consideration, is the time investment required to do anything. It can take months to learn how to model with any proficiency, and years to perfect those skills, and likewise with programming a game's engine, learning scripting, and any number of other related tasks.

Too many people think it should be as simple as flipping a switch to make a character addon without stopping to think about what is actually required, then get angry when we tell them they can learn to do it themselves and that we'll help them if they have questions. When it comes down to it, it's the serious developers who'll stick it out and try to learn, the lazy people and freeloaders are the ones who don't.

Now, I'm not saying that to be a serious developer you need to be able to model the statue of David, or able to program a current gen game engine in your sleep, you just need to be willing to learn, and willing to help out with the small things. Balancing abilities, creating particle systems, gathering references, and helping out with disscussions about needed features are all tasks that require little to no prior experience to assist with, and virtually anyone can help out with these tasks.

Wolverine View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

Shenku wrote :
The only factor most unserious game developer wannabes don't take into consideration, is the time investment required to do anything.



Agreed.
And that precisely is my problem. I can't find enough time. I'm in college. I'm learning enough new things everyday. I cannot freshen up my mind at home too to learn something that does not relate to my field.

Shenku wrote :
When it comes down to it, it's the serious developers who'll stick it out and try to learn, the lazy people and freeloaders are the ones who don't.



Agreed again. Stressing my point again that only guys who are primarily focused on game developing can learn and improve existing models and animations.

TRL View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

It all depends on what level of excellence you place yourself on. I've prided myself to be able to do both. Study in college and still do all my hobbies which include music, basketball, painting, drawing and making ZEQ2 stuff. The last year it has proven a little more difficult, but I have been doing more sport though.

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

I definitely wouldn't generalize and say that ONLY this group or that group can do something. This old saying does have some validity: "Anyone can do just about anything they put their mind to it."

Shenku wrote : You just need to be willing to learn, and willing to help out with the small things. Balancing abilities, creating particle systems, gathering references, and helping out with disscussions about needed features are all tasks that require little to no prior experience to assist with, and virtually anyone can help out with these tasks.



I think that this is probably the most important part of what Shenku said in regards to your points, Wolverine.

Let me present you with this generalization(not that I'm disagreeing with you or directing this at you, because I do think you have valid points, I just don't think it has to feel so overwhelming, especially if you take what Shenku says (in those quotes) into account.

If you want to do something, you make time for it. You only say you don't have time to do that if your will to do it isn't very strong. We make time to do this or that during our day to day. Why not this?

It is true that sometimes, there just isn't any time to do anything else. Exams are a crunch time, I've been there. I also know that (at least when I was in college) I still got in a lot of regular TV time, gaming time, and found time to do quite a bit of running, paintballing, tennis, swimming, and other things.

All that said, my life is MUCH fuller now than it ever was in college. And it does narrow the gap of time that I have.

I am not at all focused on game development from an educational standpoint. It's not my field either. This is at best a hobby for me. That's probably why I didn't take up modeling or animating. It won't pay my bills or put food on the table. The skills that I've tried to acquire here aren't going to be critical for me in my place of work, at least in the foreseeable future.

I'm just looking at the end goal here, and deciding that I'm not satisfied with where we stand in relation to that goal, and want to change things Smile

I'm just hoping you guys will decide the same thing Smile

TRL wrote : It all depends on what level of excellence you place yourself on. I've prided myself to be able to do both. Study in college and still do all my hobbies which include music, basketball, painting, drawing and making ZEQ2 stuff. The last year it has proven a little more difficult, but I have been doing more sport though.



Are you really asking us to try and be as kick-in-the-pants awesome as The Real Legend??!?!?!?!

nielsmillikan View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

I don't what to say except that you people talk too much... Razz

Well I agree with you all and I hope I get a better game soon enough. Twisted Evil

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

nielsmillikan wrote : I don't what to say except that you people talk too much... Razz


You won't be the first or last to accuse me of that one!

That said, discussion, true discussion, is what we need right now. I think there are more forum-goers out there that would love to help, and not just be content to sit idly by and munch CHEETOs and demand X or why from a game but not be willing to contribute.

It's the topic we need, even if it's not the one we deserve. Mindsets, attitudes, and goals have to change. They must, or this project will lie dormant amid a quagmire of addon packs that won't truly offer anything new.

Once minds have changed, though, this thread will become the one we deserve, but we won't need it anymore, so it will become a silent guardian. A watchful protector...

nielsmillikan wrote : Well I agree with you all and I hope I get a better game soon enough. Twisted Evil



Haha, I hope we can get to the point where we could call it a game soon! ZEQ2 just needs us to help it get there!

Zeth The Admin View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

If you want to do something, you make time for it. You only say you don't have time to do that if your will to do it isn't very strong.


This is probably the number one sentiment at play here. If you are truly interested and passionate about something, you do indeed make time for it. There are always aspects of sacrifice that have to be made when engaging in any new undertaking. Your decision to be (or not be) involved is not a reflection of your ability as much as your actual interest in the subject at hand.

I don't what to say except that you people talk too much...


This is a forum. This is a (vital) discussion. Character limits need not apply.

RealDeal View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

what should be finished first ZEQ2 or ZEQ2 LITE ?

by the way are we worthy enough to finish ZEQ2?

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

RealDeal wrote : what should be finished first ZEQ2 or ZEQ2 LITE ?

by the way are we worthy enough to finish ZEQ2?



Well, let me pose a scenario* here:

ZEQ2-Lite, as it stands, is not complete. It has lots of bugs, and though it has gained quite a few features (and continues to amaze me, considering it's quake 3) it is far from feature-complete. It is also, in many of the active developers' opinions, going to take an entire rewrite to make any real progress.

ZEQ2, as it stands, is not complete. It has been moved to the Unity engine, which, as you can guess, means that while if I gave you a percentage now of how "done" ZEQ2 is, it would be less than ZEQ2-Lite, but also means that the percentage (with help from viewers like you) would be able to increase a bit more easily and flexibly.

Do not take everything to be 100% accurate in those two paragraphs. I've been out of touch, and opinions could've changed. I have seen the progress that's been made on ZEQ2 in Unity, and I can say that it won't take much to surpass ZEQ2-Lite. Only motivation. We can help the programmers with that motivation by helping out with some of the smaller tasks Smile

Either way, future progress on both projects have been determined to need a reboot.

ZEQ2's has begun. ZEQ2-Lite has addon packs.

*All letters, numbers, words, sentences, and other trains of thought listed are the views of Skatter and Skatter alone. The rest of the ZEQ2 developers are not responsible for Skatter's wording, thank you Smile

RealDeal View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

ZEQ2's has begun. ZEQ2-Lite has addon packs.



so work has started on ZEQ2 again?

Skatter #*&@%! View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Friday, August 03, 2012

RealDeal wrote :
so work has started on ZEQ2 again?



Yes it has. If you'd like to see some of the particle tests I ran, I'll refer you to that old particle thread I made.

http://ZEQ2.com/lite/forums/viewtopic.php?p=138291&highlight=#138291

I'd like to mention that more is being done than what I have shown, but I'm just showing what I personally did. Which as you can see, isn't much. Which is why I reiterate that it's not as overwhelming or daunting as you might think Wink

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