ZEQ2 Lite

Friday, May 31, 2013

Zeth wrote :

Also you're not telling me anything new here. I know the huge interest is due to franchise, I said it in my previous post.

I know you mentioned it (as did I in my initial post). I was rehashing the point since you apparently didn't apply it when discussing the contents of your post. Your amazement/giddiness was misplaced over a trivial note that you yourself had literally just elaborated the reasoning for.

I'm not giddy.

It's just cool to see the effects of it regardless of the reasoning behind it.

Friday, May 31, 2013

It's just cool to see the effects of it regardless of the reasoning behind it.

One could do a similar project with Legend of Zelda or even something like My Little Pony and achieve similar results. If there's a obsessed fanbase, you can ride popularity by associating with any existing trend.

Try to think objectively here. Look at the project they have currently and remove all aspects of Pokemon. Just make it generic characters and generic creatures with the current feature-set, assets, and rendering approaches. Do you genuinely think it'd still have a large following or have any praise as its current stage? Would it even be on anyone's radar? Very unlikely based that there HAVE been dozens and dozens of mods/games fitting that criteria with far more tenacious sets of plans, innovative gameplays, and more practical design approaches that still have gone largely unnoticed and inevitably faded out as a result.

Wipe the pokemon glitter off and it doesn't (yet) stand on its own against majority of the games on moddb.

Friday, May 31, 2013

It's funny that you keep trying to explain/prove it to me, while I already accepted it a long time ago.

Heh they got 60.000 yesterday, but they still haven't beaten the 80.000 an actual other pokemon project got, Pokemon 3D. I wonder if there's a way to look up the actual record on moddb. I guess I just have a thing for statistics.

Saturday, June 01, 2013

that game is stuff this one I like way more

*Laughing my loving butt off*

its on Unreal engine 3 ^^

Saturday, June 01, 2013

It's funny that you keep trying to explain/prove it to me, while I already accepted it a long time ago.

I was clarifying/extending for the sake of others, Bruno.
Your post was just quoted as a springboard.

Saturday, June 01, 2013

Zeth wrote : Shame they are using so many Unity addons/extensions/scripts/shaders though rather than making their own.

Why would that be a cause for shame? By your analogy, they should make their own engine and discard Unity altogether. There is no point in 're-inventing the wheel'. The addons/extensions/scripts/shaders you talk about are provided for usage and can be tweaked to get desired results although the tweaking does not seem necessary as their audience seems to enjoy the result. Not everyone here is trying to be accurate to the anime, Brad. Even if its utilizing the popularity of the anime, you can belittle their achievement as they are, perhaps, the first 3D pokemon project to reach this far against all the innumerable dead projects (including my own).Not to mention that they did this in a short span of a few months as well.

Saturday, June 01, 2013

nielsmillikan wrote :

Zeth wrote : Shame they are using so many Unity addons/extensions/scripts/shaders though rather than making their own.

Why would that be a cause for shame? By your analogy, they should make their own engine and discard Unity altogether. There is no point in 're-inventing the wheel'. The addons/extensions/scripts/shaders you talk about are provided for usage and can be tweaked to get desired results although the tweaking does not seem necessary as their audience seems to enjoy the result. Not everyone here is trying to be accurate to the anime, Brad. Even if its utilizing the popularity of the anime, you can belittle their achievement as they are, perhaps, the first 3D pokemon project to reach this far against all the innumerable dead projects (including my own).Not to mention that they did this in a short span of a few months as well.

They are not the first 3D project to reach this far. There was a thing called Pokemod for HL1 long ago. While it wasn't fully finished, it was further than this project development wise.

It wasn't as pretty, but it was further along.

Saturday, June 01, 2013

Why would that be a cause for shame? By your analogy, they should make their own engine and discard Unity altogether. There is no point in 're-inventing the wheel'. The addons/extensions/scripts/shaders you talk about are provided for usage and can be tweaked to get desired results.

There's a difference between re-inventing the wheel and utilizing systems tuned for your actual needs. Contrary to what even Dave did with parts of ZEQ2-lite (lens flare, camera shake, etc.), throwing in an effect/addon just because you have access to it is not what game design is about. Every component needs purpose and forethought into if it fits what your goals are before you just recklessly slap it in.

Not only the above, but there's a WORLD of difference in terms of recognition deserved when you compare someone who has written their own systems. For instance, ZEQ2-lite and Earth Special Forces both have from the ground up particle systems custom-made for the respective projects. Unity certainly may have a more robust/powerful particle system in many regards, but using their system should never get the same amount of respect as someone who painstakingly developed their own approach -- regardless of results.

Another example. SV spent a ridiculous amount of time studying Naruto games and artistic techniques when he was making fire effects in Naruto: Naiteki Kensei all while simultaneously working with their programmer to get a proper implementation to pull it off. It shows. I'm certainly not saying that amazing effects/usages shouldn't be appreciated -- only that the time/work/energy spent is a huge factor in gauging impressiveness.

Using existing frameworks is perfectly fine when you are looking to save time on a complex sub-system, but that's only when you actually comprehend the process and design of such an implementation. Much is lost in the learning/understanding process by just dropping in scripts/assets frivolously.

the tweaking does not seem necessary as their audience seems to enjoy the result.

Their audience is primarily blinded by the nostalgic factor and is likely a younger age demographic else there would be critics galore. This phenomenon can easily be also observed with ZEQ2-lite's lack of proper critical breakdowns despite its numerous design, graphical, and structural flaws.

One does not even have to examine deeply to pick apart several tweaks that should be done on the meshes, outline technique, and network code that would boost the quality ten-fold. If I can spot such things at a glance, they should be able to easily identify and resolve the problems in the course of a couple days.

Not everyone here is trying to be accurate to the anime, Brad.

And no one said they had to be. There's a difference between being accurate and tailoring your product based on a uniform aim. To cite Earth Special Forces once more, they aren't aiming anywhere near accuracy, but they have been trying to make sure that all of their assets/gameplay conform to a central aesthetic and underlying flow. That's game design 101 in games from the most basic 2D platformer to the most rich AAA title.

Even if its utilizing the popularity of the anime, you can belittle their achievement as they are, perhaps, the first 3D pokemon project to reach this far against all the innumerable dead projects (including my own).

Being the first of a kind is not a correlating attribute of quality. To be clear, I'm not attacking Pokemon Generations in the slightest here. I'm simply trying to hold some level of objectivity/critical analysis of the project at its current stage rather than dousing myself with gasoline and jumping into the bonfire with other zealots.

Not to mention that they did this in a short span of a few months as well.

Don't be mistaken. Doing a project such as they have in Unity is a pittance of a feat compared to frameworks of old. The engine provides you all of the means to do most tasks at an accelerated rate. Assuming assets in hand, it wouldn't take more than a week or two to roll code from scratch with the same matching functionality (and likely more thorough/extendable class-sets).

I'm sure it's been a learning process for them (and that's fine), but you really need to understand the tools and the playing field before you try to dish out self-congratulatory remarks of this scope, Niels. You're completely out of your element.

Find me one actual seasoned game developer who thinks the art, pipeline, code style, or mechanical progress relative to timespan is impressive and deserving of praise in the slightest and we'll re-step this chorus.

Saturday, June 01, 2013

Zeth wrote :
There's a difference between re-inventing the wheel and utilizing systems tuned for your actual needs. Contrary to what even Dave did with parts of ZEQ2-lite (lens flare, camera shake, etc.), throwing in an effect/addon just because you have access to it is not what game design is about. Every component needs purpose and forethought into if it fits what your goals are before you just recklessly slap it in.

Not only the above, but there's a WORLD of difference in terms of recognition deserved when you compare someone who has written their own systems. For instance, ZEQ2-lite and Earth Special Forces both have from the ground up particle systems custom-made for the respective projects. Unity certainly may have a more robust/powerful particle system in many regards, but using their system should never get the same amount of respect as someone who painstakingly developed their own approach -- regardless of results.

Another example. SV spent a ridiculous amount of time studying Naruto games and artistic techniques when he was making fire effects in Naruto: Naiteki Kensei all while simultaneously working with their programmer to get a proper implementation to pull it off. It shows. I'm certainly not saying that amazing effects/usages shouldn't be appreciated -- only that the time/work/energy spent is a huge factor in gauging impressiveness.

First of all, his game so his choices. Be it effects, techniques or anything.
Second, Working smarter deserves more respect than working harder. SV may climb Mt. Everest to paint picture of the landscape, but if Xatoku simply googles and paints the view, I'd give Xatoku more respect for his intelligence.

Their audience is primarily blinded by the nostalgic factor and likely age demographic else there would be critics. This phenomenon can easily be observed with ZEQ2-lite's lack of proper critical breakdowns as well despite its numerous design, graphical, and structural flaws.

One does not even have to examine deeply to pick apart several tweaks that should be done on the meshes, outline technique, and network code that would boost the quality ten-fold. If I can spot such things at a glance, they should be able to easily identify and resolve the problems in the course of a couple days.

Or he could use those days to work on something he believes needs more priority. I don't see the point on discussing this since neither of us know what Xatoku's plans are. You may say that his way of going about things related to development is not correct and may not adhere to the 'guidelines set by experienced' developers' like yourself, I'd say let him be. He's experimenting and there are no fixed results to achieve when you are experimenting.

Being the first of a kind is not a correlating attribute of quality. To be clear, I'm not attacking Pokemon Generations in the slightest here. I'm simply trying to hold some level of objectivity/critical analysis of the project at its current stage rather than dousing myself with gasoline and jumping into the bonfire with other zealots.

It seems rather opposite to me. You've emphasized only the empty half of the glass.

Don't be mistaken. Doing a project such as they have in Unity is a pittance of a feat compared to frameworks of old. The engine provides you all of the means to do most tasks at an accelerated rate. Assuming assets in hand, it wouldn't take more than a week or two to roll code from scratch with the same matching functionality (and likely more thorough/extendable class-sets).

I'm sure it's been a learning process for them (and that's fine), but you really need to understand the tools and the playing field before you try to dish out self-congratulatory remarks of this scope, Niels. You're completely out of your element.

Find me one actual seasoned game developer who thinks the art, pipeline, code style, or mechanic progress relative to timespan is impressive and deserving of praise in the slightest and we'll re-step this chorus.

There. This elitist behaviour, emphasizing how the work of others is pitiful and how easy it is for them given the tools they have. This comparison is similar to comparing the achievement of the kid in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5WB-p-QBJc to the performance of the professional/experienced people, maybe someone like him.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w24A2eesrUA

Saturday, June 01, 2013

They are just using unity exactly as it was ment to be used. Giving unexperienced developers a chance to come to better results faster.

They're going to make mistakes.

Sunday, June 02, 2013

First of all, his game so his choices. Be it effects, techniques or anything.
Second, Working smarter deserves more respect than working harder. SV may climb Mt. Everest to paint picture of the landscape, but if Xatoku simply googles and paints the view, I'd give Xatoku more respect for his intelligence.

It's not working smarter, it's working blindly. Imagine someone making a rocket-powered car. Then when asked how they do it, all they say is "Well, I just attached the rockets I bought online to the car I already had". Would you praise them as a genius compared to actual scientist who created the principles and components they just super-glued together? Unlikely.

Snapping together existing objects without fully understanding how they can can be used or how the underlying functions behave is NOT something to be respected; knowledge/wisdom works the exact opposite.

Or he could use those days to work on something he believes needs more priority. I don't see the point on discussing this since neither of us know what Xatoku's plans are. You may say that his way of going about things related to development is not correct and may not adhere to the 'guidelines set by experienced' developers' like yourself, I'd say let him be. He's experimenting and there are no fixed results to achieve when you are experimenting.

This discussion isn't about his priorities or plans. It's about acknowledging room for improvements based on shortcomings and receiving/giving credit when (and only when) credit is actually deserved.

It seems rather opposite to me. You've emphasized only the empty half of the glass.

Constructive comments are neither positive nor negative. Everything I've commented on is in relation to improvement of the project. If anything, I've offered more insight/help than anyone else who simply has dished out frothing one-liners.

I'd be more in-depth about exact ways on how to fix the technical issues and even be willing to share direct fixes/techniques or engage in design discussion, but Xatoku bans users from ZEQ2-lite, deletes any comments that aren't positive on his forums/moddb, and in general doesn't want to be influenced or criticized by anyone.

I'm not the one being close-minded in this scenario.

There. This elitist behaviour, emphasizing how the work of others is pitiful and how easy it is for them given the tools they have. This comparison is similar to comparing the achievement of the kid in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5WB-p-QBJc to the performance of the professional/experienced people, maybe someone like him.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w24A2eesrUA

Firstly, my usage of pittance was to describe the quantifiable amount of work required. It doesn't relate to anything being pitiful in any way whatsoever.

Secondly, my comments were not elitist. If a professional tennis player says that using graphite tennis racquet will improve your performance but require more work, he's hardly being egoistic in the exchange.

I know precisely where I stand when it comes to game development, engine design, and the tools/processes involved (even in Unity). I am well within my rights to make bold comments about the process because I've made and used similar frameworks over the last decade. If this were a discussion about politics, rugby, automobiles, military weapons, or any number of other subjects, I'd have absolutely no say/weight in anything I said since I lack any real knowledge on them; however, since this is IS about one subject I have a LARGE amount of knowledge in, it would be reasonable for matters I speak of on it to carry a great deal of truth and significance.

Therefore, if you'd really like to debate against what I'm saying, I expect you to actually understand every aspect involved and not just be dishing out vagueness based on your assumptions/opinions. I'm simply bringing status quo science of the matter to this discussion.

My biggest point/issue is your (and others) misgauging of how much respect/admiration/glory the project deserves as it stands. Even if I had made Pokemon Generations myself with a quadruple quality threshold using all proper approaches, it'd still deserve absolutely nothing in comparison to true geniuses/masters of software/game design (like David Rosen).

This is precisely the same reason why I always comment on the unsatisfactory state of ZEQ2-lite in a non-bias way despite its "pseudo-success". [color="009cff"]If you assume everything is "greatness incarnate" (10 of 10 stars), then you have no threshold to measure true masterpieces when they actually do come along.[/color]

Sunday, June 02, 2013

*throwing oil on the fire*

Elitist can also be seen as always being against what the masses like.

Sunday, June 02, 2013

Elitist can also be seen as always being against what the masses like.

That matches no existing standard/definition of the word. Disagreeing with the masses can make you dissenting, controversial, and certainly a minority, but not an elitist.

Elitism (a snob in the context its being used) is a derogatory term about believing yourself superior to others. My worth (or anyone else's worth) as a person is not relative to this discussion. Regardless, I do believe in an underlying neutral equality; however, with that said, a measure of a person in entirety is not a measure of their individual traits/capabilities. Being able to identify your own (and others) strengths/weaknesses doesn't identify you as an elitist; it simply offers you practical insight.

Sunday, June 02, 2013

TRL wrote : *throwing oil on the fire*

Elitist can also be seen as always being against what the masses like.

that's a weird representation of the word.

Basically the story is, that if you use things that work, but you have no understanding of how they work, you end up with a product that's poorly optimized and essentially held together with duct tape.

Imagine this. They finish it and for some reason its eating up the same amount of resources as something that looks 10 times better. And that would only be due to the fact that their resources are not optimized for the project itself, but are only slapped on there because they partially do what the devs wanted.

Again props to them for going at the project, but if they don't optimize the code for those unity pluggins they will end up with a resource hogg and a development failure.

And again. They are not the first to make a 3D pokemon mod/game. (and that's ignoring stadium for the N64)

Sunday, June 02, 2013

Such elitists!

You can be elitist about anything, about your knowledge about something, about the way you present that knowledge, it doesn't have to be about your person being superior.

For instance "hipsters" are elitist in the sense of "coolness", knowing about underground culture stuff.

And now I'm elitist about knowing what elitist means.

Sunday, June 02, 2013

Too much discussion about irrelevant stuff.

Sunday, June 02, 2013

Acaryus wrote : Too much discussion about irrelevant stuff.

True that! Take that onepercenters!

Anyway determination in finishing something you started, which isn't likely in this area, should always be applauded.

Sunday, June 02, 2013

You can be elitist about anything, about your knowledge about something, about the way you present that knowledge, it doesn't have to be about your person being superior.

For instance "hipsters" are elitist in the sense of "coolness", knowing about underground culture stuff.

And now I'm elitist about knowing what elitist means. Razz

That's completely fabricated and you know it .

Too much discussion about irrelevant stuff. Smile

What would you rather the discussion be about? Would you rather each post just have people screaming "♥♥♥♥♥ ZOMGGZOG POKEMANS ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥!" Is that really helpful/intelligent?

Anyway determination in finishing something you started, which isn't likely in this area, should always be applauded.

Now THAT I can agree on. Anybody with the ability to maintain a passionate/prioritized drive for a period of time without flaking off *COUGH COUGH* or losing focus is always something to be admired.

Lets just hope that holds up 9-12 months from now.

Sunday, June 02, 2013

Zeth wrote : What would you rather the discussion be about? Would you rather each post just have people screaming "♥♥♥♥♥ ZOMGGZOG POKEMANS ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥!" Is that really helpful/intelligent?

Haven't seen one yet, just huge walls of text.

Sunday, June 02, 2013

Zeth wrote :
That's completely fabricated and you know it .

A word can mean whatever I want it to mean!

No but seriously though, despite what elitist language majors will tell you, word usage and meaning is dictated by the masses and I have heard/read many people use it in that way.

Just like how a "bro" isn't the same as an actual brother despite what these boards try to dictate.

Sunday, June 02, 2013

Please refrain of posting in this topic if it's merely about your inability to even read one textbook page of text. Now we gotta clean up this mess. Your scream for attention will not be answered with enthusiasm.

Sunday, June 02, 2013

Haven't seen one yet, just huge walls of text.

Not to say that it's not a convincing Zielan-response-style you're pulling, but minimalist retorts aren't really suited when you have a debate presented with quasi bullet points. Why don't you try to actually respond to each individual aspect rather than pitch quips? Lengthy, in-depth discussion is kind of the entire purpose of a forum.

No but seriously though, despite what elitist language majors will tell you, word usage and meaning is dictated by the masses and I have heard/read many people use it in that way.

Just like how a "brother" isn't the same as an actual brother despite what these boards try to dictate. Razz

Bro has alternative slang usages in the context used on these boards. Elitist does not. Yes, language is governed by day-to-day adaptations and thus prone to change. Despite that, I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a majority that accepts your usage worldwide -- ironically making your declaration of usage 'elitist' under its own terms.

Sunday, June 02, 2013

It would also be highly ironic to condemn huge walls of texts with huge walls of texts!

Hahaha this conversation is turning out to be so funny to me.

Sunday, June 02, 2013

It would also be highly ironic to condemn huge walls of texts with huge walls of texts! Very Happy

Sure, but I'm pretty sure my suggestion was not for him to comment on the post length with a larger post, but rather for him to discuss the actual beef of the thread.

Sunday, June 02, 2013

So much too long; didn't read in so little time.