ZEQ2 Lite

Tuesday, January 06, 2015

It seems that many developers on this site like to integrate Kaioken as one of Goku's transformation tiers. I however, believe that the Kaioken is a technique and not a transformation. Though it does enhance physical abilities like Super Saiyan, it does so at the cost of the user's ki, whereas the Super Saiyan transformation multiplies the user's ki (by anime standards). If anything, the Kaioken is a supercharged ki boost. I guess my only real grievance with this is that it seems impractical for a character to be in the Kaioken state for more than a matter of minutes as it was originally developed to give the user a boost and not for entire fights.

I'm not too familiar with ZEQ2/Quake 3's language of code and I'm not proposing that anyone code it in the form of an attack as opposed to a transformation but I thought I'd share this and hear how the rest of you feel about it.

Wednesday, January 07, 2015

In the manga, it's called a technique. But it's seen different in many games:

- Budokai: transformation
- Budokai tenkaichi: special hability/technique
- Earth Special Forces: technique
- ZEQ2-lite: transformation.

Actually, in ZEQ2-lite, it can be done as an attack, but:

- Models and animations need to be doubled.

- A lot of work (and thinking) is needed for the aura since the tier.cfg cannot be used there.

- The stats and Kaioken features can't be changed/set for the same reason.

- It takes a skill room for nothing since it's only for distance attacks.

And there's surelly more.. I think it's easier to put it as a tier than changing everything in the game, you see ? '

Still that you're right on that point.

Edit: in case of coding a special state/abilities system (like tenkaichi), extanding the tier.cfg, icon.png and the default.skin like for the default/icon_<something> system would allow to do much more on the configurations and keep the same weight on the models.

Wednesday, January 07, 2015

Djosama wrote : It seems that many developers on this site like to integrate Kaioken as one of Goku's transformation tiers. I however, believe that the Kaioken is a technique and not a transformation. Though it does enhance physical abilities like Super Saiyan, it does so at the cost of the user's ki, whereas the Super Saiyan transformation multiplies the user's ki (by anime standards). If anything, the Kaioken is a supercharged ki boost. I guess my only real grievance with this is that it seems impractical for a character to be in the Kaioken state for more than a matter of minutes as it was originally developed to give the user a boost and not for entire fights.

I'm not too familiar with ZEQ2/Quake 3's language of code and I'm not proposing that anyone code it in the form of an attack as opposed to a transformation but I thought I'd share this and hear how the rest of you feel about it.

Honestly, I find the best most easiest idea Kaioken as a transformation with higher x variations as attacks, for example, lets say we have a Goku who transforms into Kaioken, for normal mêlée he goes x2 for kick smash he goes x3 (Or, he goes x2 when he locks on and goes x3 for all smash type attacks), for all average ki attacks like push and ki ball etc x2, for Kamehameha we have him charging up as x3 and firing at x4, (Since the only difference in the higher Kaioken forms are muscle mass and hair that won't be a problem using animations alone.) For his strongest move Kamehameha x20 with soaring at x3.

Wednesday, January 07, 2015

Djosama wrote : It seems that many developers on this site like to integrate Kaioken as one of Goku's transformation tiers.

I think it has less to do with liking it and more to do with granting as faithful representation as possible within the current parameters as posted above me. I think most people here would agree with you that it's more of a technique than a transformation, but given the way skills work and the way transformations work in ZEQ2-Lite specifically, it'd require a lot more work to represent the Kaioken in a skill than in a transformation-work most of the folks traipsing through simply aren't up to the caliber of taking on(yet?).

Djosama wrote : it does so at the cost of the user's ki

I would argue that for the sake of implementations specific to ZEQ2-Lite based on the intrinsic analysis of the series limited to the English run of the anime, it makes far more sense for the Kaioken to burn health than ki-or at the very least life force seems to be a more important source of energy for the attack.

Perhaps the other translations or media shed a different light, but those have no more weight against the English translation here than a fanfic would-only what the user can glean from the English adaptation is essential-the other sources are treated as non-existent.

Djosama wrote : I guess my only real grievance with this is that it seems impractical for a character to be in the Kaioken state for more than a matter of minutes as it was originally developed to give the user a boost and not for entire fights.

There are a lot of ways to force the Kaioken into brevity, eliminating anyone's desire to sustain it. A higher health drain could accomplish this, as good simply placing a timer. Or a penalty that rises at a greater frequency the longer a user sustains the Kaioken. Maybe one day someone that's interested in faithful representation that also has the willingness to learn how to implement more faithful representations will arise.

Wednesday, January 07, 2015

It seems that many developers on this site like to integrate Kaioken as one of Goku's transformation tiers. I however, believe that the Kaioken is a technique and not a transformation.

ZEQ2's/ZEQ2-lite's design docs never intended for Kaioken to be a transformation. It was just sort of lumped in with them temporarily since an existing system already existed. It was always intended to be later pushed off as an actual skill that you can use (in any transformation state even).

The series describes it as taxing on the body/lifeforce. I cannot recall how it is implemented in ZEQ2-lite currently, but by all accounts, it SHOULD be causing damage to you.

it seems impractical for a character to be in the Kaioken state for more than a matter of minutes as it was originally developed to give the user a boost and not for entire fights.

The duration is somewhat debatable. No, it wasn't intended to be a maintained transformation state for long periods, but yes, the series DID have several instances where Kaioken was maintained for long stretches or entire bouts -- namely when Goku fought Freeza. It wasn't announced vibrantly or visually expressed, but King Kai did make a note that Goku had been using the Kaioken the whole time (during that portion of the fight).

Friday, January 09, 2015

Zeth wrote : The duration is somewhat debatable. No, it wasn't intended to be a maintained transformation state for long periods, but yes, the series DID have several instances where Kaioken was maintained for long stretches or entire bouts -- namely when Goku fought Freeza. It wasn't announced vibrantly or visually expressed, but King Kai did make a note that Goku had been using the Kaioken the whole time (during that portion of the fight).

Goku himself never used it for extended periods of time. He used it on and off, since it was an instant trigger. Basically he would activate it just before throwing a punch to enhance his strength or just before dodging. And then deactivate it just after. So he would turn it on for a fraction of a second and then turn it back off. That was the only way for him to maintain it for longer periods of time. Doing it full time would be life threatening to him.

The principle is similar to Luffys Gear 2nd. Though in One piece Luffy accelerates his heartbeat by using his leggs as a pump to accelerate the blood flow. Kaioken is described as a rechnique that increases the KI flow, and that is damaging to the body itself. The better the bodys physical condition the more punishment it can take from the technique.

And yes Kaioken is a technique. Its a popwer up. Similar to Ultimate Super Saiyan to be precise just that instead of draining energy, the user gains energy and power at the expense of damage done to the users body.

Friday, January 09, 2015

Goku himself never used it for extended periods of time. He used it on and off, since it was an instant trigger. Basically he would activate it just before throwing a punch to enhance his strength or just before dodging. And then deactivate it just after. So he would turn it on for a fraction of a second and then turn it back off. That was the only way for him to maintain it for longer periods of time. Doing it full time would be life threatening to him.

This is a completely valid line of thought understanding of the technique, but there are indicators at play that can suggest he did (at some points) maintain it for longer than brief instants. When dealing with Dragon Ball Z physics/reality/accuracy, there are a TON of factors to consider and often many breakdowns will lead to conflicting results.

What source are we going by? Are extrinsic (out of series) breakdowns/explanations used? Are intrinsic (in series) character breakdowns/explanations reliable? Are our perceptions of time (as viewers) reliable? Are our perceptions of the events taking place visually reflective of what's actually taking place?

What a character says may not always reflect how actions are represented. How something is spoken/translated/transferred in one medium/version may not preserve directly in another. Just because we see a battle taking 10 hours doesn't mean the series isn't perceiving it as 10 minutes. Likewise, we cannot always use the visual cues we are given (like aura shape, colors, sounds, etc.) as a definitive means to classify techniques/states in use.

If you define specific criteria, then it's entirely possible to come up with a reasonable analysis. It's not really a one-size-fits-all kind of situation, however.

Friday, January 09, 2015

Zeth wrote :
If you define specific criteria, then it's entirely possible to come up with a reasonable analysis. It's not really a one-size-fits-all kind of situation, however.

Very true, especially when considering that each of Goku's fights was very different from one to the next, as were the circumstances that Goku had to deal with.

Vegeta round 1: used Kaioken several times, Vegeta was still much stronger, Goku couldn't sustain it.

Captain Ginyu(I don't really count the rest of the Ginyu squad): Kaioken (seemed to be, but was not confirmed to have been) used to raise Goku's Powerlevel as high as he could go.

Frieza: used extensively up until the Super Saiyan half of the fight, but did little good except to discomfort Frieza with the 20x Kaioken Kamehameha. Goku was too drained after to put up much more resistance.

Android 19: Heart Virus interfered, Goku would supposedly have never gotten a chance to use it.

Cell: He never intended to win, having wanted Gohan to fight from the beginning, probably didn't use it at all because he knew he didn't need to.

Paikuhan: used it once, last time we hear mention of the technique in the series.

That light eating alien on Babadi's ship that I can't remember the name of: Choked on Goku's excess energy, Kaioken probably not even needed.

Vegeta round 2: Goku intentionally held back the entire fight, no reason to think he would use the technique here if that's the case, because he didn't need to.

Buu round 1: Goku didn't have a lot of time to fight him, and intended on teaching Trunks and Goten how to perform the Fusion Dance before his time ran out so they could win in his stead. Best assumption is Super Saiyan 3 here was his raw power alone, no Kaioken used as it wasn't needed.

Buu round 2-3(Vegito)-4: the more everyone fought Buu, the more Goku must have realized Buu's regenerative ability made using Kaioken kind of pointless if he was just going to regenerate from whatever Goku could throw at him short of a massive Spirit Bomb. Spirit Bombs are powered mostly by energy from others though, not by the user himself, so Kaioken wouldn't have made much (if any) of a difference.

But yes, it's a technique, not a transformation. I tried briefly to find a way to make it into an actual useable technique instead of a transformation, but I didn't get anywhere successful with my attempts...

Monday, January 12, 2015

Holy stuff is that Skatter? Shenku? and Zeth!? I miss being here...