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Master Server

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Monk66 View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, September 06, 2015

How to create a master server? (for ZEQ2 - Lite)(need source code??)

Eagle The Purpose View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, September 06, 2015

Do you need to play so badly ? -_-

Monk66 View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, September 06, 2015

yeah don't know why *laughing out loud*, also I want to learn stuff. thanks

Shenku RiO Incarnate View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, September 06, 2015

Assuming you're actually serious about wanting to know about this, you'd have to look through the documentation on the subject for IO Quake 3 (the engine that ZEQ2-Lite uses), as well as learn about setting up and running a full dedicated server(not just a ZEQ2-Lite server), which is much more complicated than how ZEQ2-Lite's individual servers are setup, and would either require dedicated hardware, or a server hosting service that's flexible enough to set it up. Then finally, you would need to update the server side of the client's source and recompile it so that the engine could communicate with the new Master Server.

Personally, I think it would be simpler to just ask on IO Quake's site about what might have changed on their end to cause the issue, since the Stable Revision did not itself get changed when the issue began, and then correct the code on our end and recompile to restore server functionality and refacilitate communications between ZEQ2-Lite's servers and the Master Server.

Of course, that requires that those of you who want servers back actually want them back bad enough to start learning and contributing to the project, because while it would be nice to have them working again, most of the seasoned contributers here could care less if the servers work or not at present, because we've been too busy working on other things to use them anyways.

Too long; didn't read:
If you want the servers working again, you're going to have to learn how to fix it yourself.

Eagle The Purpose View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, September 06, 2015

What do you want to learn exactly ? "Stuff" isn't pointing something at all, it can be everything if not defined.

It seems also like you are only looking for the servers for your own entertainment to me, and nothing more...

*sigh*

Nobody gives a love about the project or it's goals these days...

Shenku RiO Incarnate View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, September 06, 2015

Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) wrote : What do you want to learn exactly ? "Stuff" isn't pointing something at all, it can be everything if not defined.

It seems also like you are only looking for the servers for your own entertainment to me, and nothing more...

*sigh*

Nobody gives a love about the project or it's goals these days...



Yes, "stuff" isn't very specific, but it doesn't really matter if he really wants to learn. Any "stuff" he learns could potentially be beneficial for him and the project as a whole.

The least you can do is give him the benefit of the doubt until evidence proves his intentions otherwise.

Be a Positive Patty, not a Negative Nelly, if you catch my meaning.

Eagle The Purpose View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, September 06, 2015

Yes, "stuff" isn't very specific, but it doesn't really matter if he really wants to learn. Any "stuff" he learns could potentially be beneficial for him and the project as a whole.



With more precision, he could have the benefice of a helping hand already. To me, it is clearly an attempt to keep the thread out of the junk forum by adding an "on topic" touch, knowing it is a sensitive subject to talk about actually..

The least you can do is give him the benefit of the doubt until evidence proves his intentions otherwise.

Be a Positive Patty, not a Negative Nelly, if you catch my meaning.



I usually would, as I do with newcomers asking for some advises/help about modding, I'm always ready to help and give someone a chance, but in this case, I sense a lazily hidden hypocrisy with a meaning of psychological manipulation. I'm sorry, but it is a kind of behavior I can't stand in certain circumstances...

Also, it isn't question of positive/negative, it is question of showing too much optimism and/or false naivety against a minimum of realism.

And no offenses by that if you got it this way, it's not my intention at all, I'm sure you discerned these back thoughts as well, but tried a different (and more appropriate) approach of a solution to, as a moderator (and probably even on purpose), keep the environment more friendly.. I just reacted as a help to make this shorter and because this precise behavior is putting me on my nerves..

Anyway, the reverse works as well, without proofs of the contrary, this is, with these evidences, lucidly a loss of time.. So, show me that I am wrong, if I really am. Wink

Concerning the master server problem, I suggest it should be discussed, to finally come to a solution. And I said DISCUSS, not ACT, so, something everyone can do if I'm not wrong. Razz

Shenku RiO Incarnate View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Sunday, September 06, 2015

This is derailing the topic a little, so to put it back on topic a bit, and since we're already here talking about it, why don't we actually start the discussion that's been needed on the Master Server for a while, and make this thread semi-productive.

That being: If anyone wants the server problem fixed, then perhaps we should discuss the problem with why it's NOT being fixed already.

The short answer? No one is "acting" on their desire to fix it. And by "acting", I do not mean "pretending" like your usage of the term, I mean taking literal action, and going through the necessary steps to start working towards fixing it, which thus far no one has tried to do.

Now this presents us with 3 possible outcomes.

First possibility, the community eventually motivates itself enough, whether by frustration, spontaneous enlightenment, or some other reason, that the people who've been too busy playing to serve the primary goals of the project will either band together or individually choose to learn what they need to and fix it themselves. Personally, I feel this is the most likely scenario that will result in the server issue being fixed, but at the moment I'm still waiting for someone to come along with the personal drive to actually attempt it instead of just talking about it or asking others to do it for them...

Second possibility, an existing and/or future contributor either becomes bored and decides to do it for giggles, gets offered some form of irresistible compensation, or otherwise gains some form of personal motivation to fix it for everyone. This is a possibility, but there's a lot of factors at play that could both increase as well as decrease the odds of any given contributor pitching in on such an endeavor, and potentially won't fix it for a very long time.

Third possibility, it never gets fixed because nobody who wants the servers back cares enough to feel it worth the effort to learn how to fix it when they can just go back to Earth Special Forces, Xenoverse, or some other game instead without having to worry about "fixing" things, and the people who already know or would be willing to learn the necessary information that could lead to fixing it decide not to because they don't mind the servers being gone since it was distracting too many people from the project's main goals to begin with. Potentially, this could mean that functional servers would be effectively "dead" until an eventual quasi-successor project, either in Unity, UE4, Zios, or any other of the various engines people have been tinkering with, is actually released as open source the way that ZEQ2-Lite was, and successfully replaces the missing server functionality in the newer iteration's version of the core ZEQ2-Lite project.

So all in all, I'm holding out hope for the first possibility, but I will admit that at present it feels very much like the third possibility is the most likely scenario since as of yet no one wants to step up to the plate and try tackling it, and most of the development work being done around here lately has been on simple addons, or segregated off-shoot projects with very lonely development teams, some of which will never actually be finished or released, judging by their development rates and the focus they receive from their solitary developers...

Essentially what I'm saying is the Master Server communication problem will not be fixed until someone who sincerely wants to fix it, and not just thinks they want to, comes along and physically acts on their desires and commits to the task instead of just getting discouraged because it's "too hard" or "too complicated" or they're "not interested" and wondering off to the next new shiny Dragonball game to come along...



So, with all that information laid out, the only thing left to say really is, if YOU, the person reading this post right now, YES YOU! Whether you're the Original Poster or someone else, I'm talking to YOU. *Points at you with an exaggerated Uncle Sam style finger* If YOU sincerely and truly want to fix the Master Server problem in ZEQ2-Lite, and are really willing to learn, then ASK questions. Start learning about the code, try making your own small changes to portions of the engine, and get acclimated to how the engine works and what the correct syntax is, exc. We'll help to guide you on the correct path, and help you learn, but we're not going to do it for you. So if you seriously want to learn, then engage with us and we will help you.

Think of it in Star Wars terms. We(The experienced developers/contributors on the forums) are the Jedi Masters who are willing and capable of teaching you the grand mysteries of the Force (game development and all its subtle intricacies), and YOU are the young Padawans who are eager to learn and not yet fully disciplined and versed in they ways of the Force (again, Game development). If you intend to learn and do, then you must learn and do. There is no "try" in this regard. You either do, or do not, there is no "try". If you come into this intending to "try" then you're not really dedicating yourself to learning, and you're not going to get very far. Psyche yourself up, get motivated, tell yourself "You can doooo eeeet!", or whatever helps motivate you, and just get started on it. The only person stopping you from accomplishing anything, is you.

/MotivationalSpeech

Eagle The Purpose View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Monday, September 07, 2015

Why continuing on this way ? It is not where the project was meant to go. You are there just going forward what we are pretty much trying to avoid since a long time, that is making ZEQ2-Lite a score based game... In case you didn't know, it has already started on the latest revisions, with what seems to be a part of an obituary/scoreboard system in the source code.

Why not giving one of the old concepts of ZEQ2 a try ? The "universe" master server and it's "planets" servers. All of the planets are connected between each other, an event on one, can influence the others (planet destruction, bosses, dragon balls etc...). It will:

- Fit more one of the real purposes of the content (faithfulness).

- Permit to use some concepts more thoroughly (for example. dragon balls).

- Wipe all of this ""abandoned" "game"" fiddle sticks reputation.

- Provide a better immersion in the universe than a game like server list used for displaying battle arenas servers made for competitive/scoring purpose..

The only real problem I see actually is the hosting part.

After, everything will be done on the maps and the code (I don't say it will be easy, it's all the contrary... BUT WE CAN ).

Finally, once this system stable enough, we could go even deeper in the simulation and metamorphose the interface and some of the mechanics/environment elements to a more realistic (Dragon Ball realism) and immersive view (interface, servers connections, event etc...).

But before going into that, there is a number 1 priority. Finishing the base.

I'm digging into the source code and trying things while learning, but without some info and with all the lacking in identifiable function trash into it, it will be hard for me to improve that base even a bit. Neutral

Shenku RiO Incarnate View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Monday, September 07, 2015

Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) wrote : Why continuing on this way ? It is not where the project was meant to go. You are there just going forward what we are pretty much trying to avoid since a long time, that is making ZEQ2-Lite a score based game... In case you didn't know, it has already started on the latest revisions, with what seems to be a part of an obituary/scoreboard system in the source code.


Where did I mention ANYTHING about a scoreboard or turning it into a score based game or trying to shift the project away from its goal? All I talked about in my post was about what's needed from the community to fix the Master Server issue, and specifically that. Nothing else. And what I said is true, it won't get fixed unless someone actually fixes it. Period. Their motives for fixing it are irrelevant to the end result.



Why not giving one of the old concepts of ZEQ2 a try ? The "universe" master server and it's "planets" servers. All of the planets are connected between each other, an event on one, can influence the others (planet destruction, bosses, dragon balls etc...). It will:

- Fit more one of the real purposes of the content (faithfulness).

- Permit to use some concepts more thoroughly (for example. dragon balls).

- Wipe all of this ""abandoned" "game"" fiddle sticks reputation.

- Provide a better immersion in the universe than a game like server list used for displaying battle arenas servers made for competitive/scoring purpose..



Never said we shouldn't work on some of those things, and I actually agree with you for the most part. ZEQ2-Lite could be so much more than it is, but the big problem with it of late is very few people in the community actually want to put the effort in towards making it so, and would rather just "play".

But of course, you also have to realize that due to the nature of this project being open source, anyone can come along at any time and add in any system they want if they so choose. There's honestly nothing stopping anyone from finishing up a version of the project as they see fit, and turning it into a full-fledged game. And honestly, it wouldn't necessarily be a condemnable offense if someone did, because ZEQ2-Lite would have still fulfilled part of its purpose as a "learning tool" in the process...



The only real problem I see actually is the hosting part.


Hosting servers is actually the fast and easy part.

Really, the difficult part is getting people to collaborate enough on putting such a map together to begin with. "World maps" have been attempted several times before, and they've all ended with the main contributors to them losing interest and never finishing all the countless art assets and world building required to fill in all the empty space.



After, everything will be done on the maps and the code (I don't say it will be easy, it's all the contrary... BUT WE CAN ).


There's no reason both can't be worked on at the same time if people would just pool resources instead of going off on their own. Granted, I'm guilty of this as well, but I just wanted to get a little further on some of the base systems before I opened it up to the community to tinker with, and give them a more comprehensive framework to work in.


Finally, once this system stable enough, we could go even deeper in the simulation and metamorphose the interface and some of the mechanics/environment elements to a more realistic (Dragon Ball realism) and immersive view (interface, servers connections, event etc...).


You actually wouldn't want to save these until last, or you're going to be risking painting yourself into a corner with the mechanics. These are all things that should be getting considered from the project's initial conception, and all the way through to its eventual "birth"(release). Otherwise, you can end up with a mess that's more trouble to fix than it's worth.

This is also one of the main reasons why a lot of people want to move away from the near-train wreck of code that is the IO Quake engine, and just start fresh in a new engine that has only the bare essentials so that we can rebuild everything from scratch without having hundreds of references to things strewn throughout the code that aren't actually needed for the project.


But before going into that, there is a number 1 priority. Finishing the base.


Getting the framework in place was, and always should have been the focus of ZEQ2-Lite, because much of it is still missing. But, that being said, there's no reason other stuff couldn't be worked on as well on occasion if it's still going to be needed eventually. Every bit helps.


I'm digging into the source code and trying things while learning, but without some info and with all the lacking in identifiable function trash into it, it will be hard for me to improve that base even a bit. Neutral


Yeah, unfortunately as I said, the code is a mess, but it's good to dig through it once in a while if you can, cause being able to just read the code at the very least is a very useful skill to have, particularly for if and when you decide to make stuff of your own.

Eagle The Purpose View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Tuesday, September 08, 2015

Where did I mention ANYTHING about a scoreboard or turning it into a score based game or trying to shift the project away from its goal?



You didn't, I did. Laughing

What I meant is that you are encouraging peoples to continue on this way, when it should be changed as it is not fitting the project in some aspects.

But I agree with the community part, nothing will be done by magic.

ZEQ2-Lite could be so much more than it is, but the big problem with it of late is very few people in the community actually want to put the effort in towards making it so, and would rather just "play".



Are we really giving a love of this ? Remember ? We are going to

If we have to care about such intellectually lacking details, it won't advance at all. The only thing to keep in mind is the common goal and the result. >: )

But of course, you also have to realize that due to the nature of this project being open source, anyone can come along at any time and add in any system they want if they so choose.



As long as it is in the bounds of the project's nature I believe.

Hosting servers is actually the fast and easy part.



Such a system will require money. I think you said it a bit earlier, it needs hardware (and not some cheap stuff), maybe a local room for these, it needs to be hosted H24 (master server & servers), etc....

Really, the difficult part is getting people to collaborate enough on putting such a map together to begin with. "World maps" have been attempted several times before, and they've all ended with the main contributors to them losing interest and never finishing all the countless art assets and world building required to fill in all the empty space.



Yeah, I saw this situation once. It's just if it was started in fact. Peoples need some motivation fuel. It's their job to find what. I personally have a few that are of a good help. Razz

There's no reason both can't be worked on at the same time if people would just pool resources instead of going off on their own. Granted, I'm guilty of this as well, but I just wanted to get a little further on some of the base systems before I opened it up to the community to tinker with, and give them a more comprehensive framework to work in.



It all depends of the hands resource we have. If the situation stays the same, everyone will work on their own if there is even some interested individuals to begin with..

You actually wouldn't want to save these until last, or you're going to be risking painting yourself into a corner with the mechanics. These are all things that should be getting considered from the project's initial conception, and all the way through to its eventual "birth"(release). Otherwise, you can end up with a mess that's more trouble to fix than it's worth.



At the beginning I wanted to present the thing in two points, the concept as first, and the improved version in second. It's like ZEQ2 and ZEQ2-Lite in fact, both are similar, but one requires more skills than the second. And since the improved version is, an improved version (Very Happy), it means it can and will be made from the base of the initial concept. I don't think there will be real issues with this, and to speak of issues, things should be planned first, am I wrong ?

This is also one of the main reasons why a lot of people want to move away from the near-train wreck of code that is the IO Quake engine, and just start fresh in a new engine that has only the bare essentials so that we can rebuild everything from scratch without having hundreds of references to things strewn throughout the code that aren't actually needed for the project.



Understandable, but this base isn't available yet (and won't be before a long period I think), so, we are doing with what we have. Also, taking it like a challenge could help. Can you believe all the things that can be done with this very old engine ? That's what is fantastic about this iteration.

Getting the framework in place was, and always should have been the focus of ZEQ2-Lite, because much of it is still missing. But, that being said, there's no reason other stuff couldn't be worked on as well on occasion if it's still going to be needed eventually. Every bit helps.



It isn't very careful to start something needing the base when this last isn't finished. Edits could change the dependent system more than slightly. That's why it is a priority.

Yeah, unfortunately as I said, the code is a mess, but it's good to dig through it once in a while if you can, cause being able to just read the code at the very least is a very useful skill to have, particularly for if and when you decide to make stuff of your own.



I hope I will be able to remove the most junk as I can. Can't promise anything...

Shenku RiO Incarnate View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Tuesday, September 08, 2015

Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) wrote : As long as it is in the bounds of the project's nature I believe.


Nope, just because it's not SVN material or doesn't fit with the project goals, doesn't mean people can't make it anyways and just upload it elsewhere.

If someone really wanted to, and I really hope no one does because I think it would be kind of silly, they could take this engine and turn it into a Dora The Explorer game for ages 3-6, and we wouldn't be able to stop them from doing it because everything is already open source. Open source by its very definition means anyone can turn it into anything.



Such a system will require money. I think you said it a bit earlier, it needs hardware (and not some cheap stuff), maybe a local room for these, it needs to be hosted H24 (master server & servers), etc....


Not necessarily.

If we're talking an semi-official ZEQ2 based project, I'm more than certain Brad could probably just set it up in conjunction with the existing server that this site is hosted from without having to purchase anything extra, and since it'd be a semi-official project, I'm sure he wouldn't object to it if it's something the community will be working on together.


It all depends of the hands resource we have. If the situation stays the same, everyone will work on their own if there is even some interested individuals to begin with..


The situation will not be staying the same, I can assure you of that, if not necessarily say "when" it will change. Can't really say specifics at this time though...


At the beginning I wanted to present the thing in two points, the concept as first, and the improved version in second. It's like ZEQ2 and ZEQ2-Lite in fact, both are similar, but one requires more skills than the second. And since the improved version is, an improved version (Very Happy), it means it can and will be made from the base of the initial concept. I don't think there will be real issues with this, and to speak of issues, things should be planned first, am I wrong ?


Yes and no. ZEQ2-Lite was not built with the intention of ever being used as the basis for ZEQ2, as ZEQ2 was intended to be built in the Zios engine, which would render any work done on ZEQ2-Lite in IO Quake semi-moot. ZEQ2-Lite was also focused on much different goals than ZEQ2 had as well, so they were never intended to be the same or "based" off of each other in the kind of sense you think they were.

But yes, planning everything out from the very beginning is exactly what I was saying needs to be done.

Can't reply on the rest right now though, gotta run out the door to work now... I'll reply on the rest later tonight maybe...

Shenku RiO Incarnate View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Tuesday, September 08, 2015

Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) wrote :
At the beginning I wanted to present the thing in two points, the concept as first, and the improved version in second. It's like ZEQ2 and ZEQ2-Lite in fact, both are similar, but one requires more skills than the second. And since the improved version is, an improved version (Very Happy), it means it can and will be made from the base of the initial concept. I don't think there will be real issues with this, and to speak of issues, things should be planned first, am I wrong ?


To expand upon my above response, since I had to cut it short to run to work, I wanted to explain exactly what the differences are in the goals between ZEQ2 and ZEQ2-Lite so as to avoid any confusion in what I was trying to say.

ZEQ2 was intended to be a fully interactive simulation of the Dragonball Z world as it was presented in the anime, put together in such a way as to be as close to 100% accurate to the series as possible. To quote a post from Brad on the ZEQ2 forums(His last post on the first page):
[quote="Zeth"]If you are making a comparison to any game in existence, you already misunderstand the design goals of ZEQ2. It's not "like" some game or "has a feature" like another game. The design premise for ZEQ2 is an unwavering, unbiased representation of the Dragon Ball Z series in it's rawest, most accurate form with absolutely zero forms of outside series input or personal creative efforts. The only form of creativity on ANY part is from the systems that drive the mechanics and overall accuracies; however, even these refined to mimic the original source as much as possible. [quote]
Contrary to complaints about things such as gooey insides, if it was in the Anime, it was intended to be included in ZEQ2.

Then they worked on, rushed really, to finish up some of the initial framework for ZEQ2-Lite using the IO Quake build they had from 2005, to quote the recap on the front page that everyone's probably been skipping past to go straight to the forums:

Recap

ZEQ2-lite was released to the public 4 years ago today (September 1st, 2009). The project was a summer’s worth of work from Zeth and MDave to get the 2005 iteration of ZEQ2 into more working order. The reasons and goal for release were the following :

◾Though dated from later incarnations of design plans, assets, and rendering techniques, much of what existed was still part of the history of ZEQ2. One of the big pushes was to ensure the work done by past generations of developers saw the light of day in some form.
◾Since there was no longer an active development team (nor organized development plans beyond the first release), the project was to be presented as an open-source (both code/media), community-driven concept that could be expanded upon artistically and programmatically.

Given that gameplay was largely config-driven, entry-level and experienced individuals alike were greatly encouraged to tinker with the system within to achieve their own creations. Over the years, a large number of new character, maps, addon packs, and even volumes of code changes came about from contributors of varied backgrounds.

While the artistic and config side of things continues to be very bountiful even to this day, the lack of committed programming contributors and internal design management has left the project short of an actual finished game experience worthy of mention or extended play.

This is something we’d like to change.



If you look closely at that second to last sentence for the recap, it uses the word "game". ZEQ2-Lite is not currently a game at present, true. But the goal was to make it open source so that the work that had been done wouldn't go to waste, as well as for the community to work together to make it into a game, albeit not in the traditional sense that every Atari game does, and eventually start helping out with ZEQ2 itself. The problem is, no one did, which is why we are where we're at now.



Understandable, but this base isn't available yet (and won't be before a long period I think), so, we are doing with what we have. Also, taking it like a challenge could help. Can you believe all the things that can be done with this very old engine ? That's what is fantastic about this iteration.


Define "base". Are you referring to ZEQ2-Lite, or the third-party Unity/UE4 projects?

If you're referring to ZEQ2-Lite, then the base is already there, it just needs people to finish the out the rest of the structure for it. It's like building a living person. So far ZEQ2-Lite is just a skeleton(The most basic support system for actually building and running everything else, without it, the rest would crumple like a gooey mess...), but while everyone should be focusing on putting in the major organs, musculature, circulatory, and nervous systems(The needed code changes to finish out the game mechanics), everyone's focusing on what the skin looks like(Character addons), and worried about why this person doesn't have more hair(Map addons). It makes no sense, but that's what people are doing (and somewhere in the world, I probably just made a biologist/doctor cry from this analogy...).

If you're referring to the third-party non-official projects, then their legitimacy and availability are entirely up in the air at the moment. Some may eventually be released, but whether or not they'll follow the community development approach that ZEQ2-Lite tried to foster is still debatable. For ZOPU at least, the community development approach is the initial goal of its release. I'm just still iffy on when though. With any luck, I'm hoping before the end of this upcoming Fall, maybe sooner, but we'll see... My crystal ball hasn't exactly been the most accurate on predicting such things though, so take that with a grain of salt and a pound of probably not's.


It isn't very careful to start something needing the base when this last isn't finished. Edits could change the dependent system more than slightly. That's why it is a priority.


Not sure what you mean here exactly, are you referring to all the addons that are always being made for ZEQ2-Lite even though the project as a whole is incomplete? Not much we can do about that, we can't exactly hold guns to people's heads and demand they stop making Goku Super Saiyan 84 type addons and instead start programming a grappling system...

Or are you referring to moving focus to the third party projects? Because if that's the case, then it's not exactly that different from what Brad wanted us to do when he posted the last news update on the front page of the site. The problem is, as I've said, everyone's all hoarding their creations at present and keeping them to themselves, so no one's sharing much of anything right now. But again, I hope to change that with ZOPU soonish...


I hope I will be able to remove the most junk as I can. Can't promise anything...


If you can remove anything at all, even just a few unnecessary files, that alone would be worthwhile for improving the readability and efficiency of the engine. After all, there's no point compiling all the junk in if it's not actually going to be used, it's just wasted data space then.

I'd do some of it myself, but I'm honestly too visual of a person to work very efficiently with actual code... I understand the basic programming concepts, but the syntax and whatnot just hurt my brain after a while, so digging through to pull that stuff all out would be a veritable nightmare for someone like me...

Eagle The Purpose View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Wednesday, September 09, 2015

Nope, just because it's not SVN material or doesn't fit with the project goals, doesn't mean people can't make it anyways and just upload it elsewhere.



I was talking about the main development, I don't mind unoficial spin-offs. Laughing

If someone really wanted to, and I really hope no one does because I think it would be kind of silly, they could take this engine and turn it into a Dora The Explorer game for ages 3-6, and we wouldn't be able to stop them from doing it because everything is already open source. Open source by its very definition means anyone can turn it into anything.



I doubt someone would even want to make something like that...

Not necessarily.

If we're talking an semi-official ZEQ2 based project, I'm more than certain Brad could probably just set it up in conjunction with the existing server that this site is hosted from without having to purchase anything extra, and since it'd be a semi-official project, I'm sure he wouldn't object to it if it's something the community will be working on together.



I don't know what hosts the sites etc... But I doubt it would be enough for this use in plus of what charges it actually has.

The situation will not be staying the same, I can assure you of that, if not necessarily say "when" it will change. Can't really say specifics at this time though...



Is there something going on that I am not aware of ? Razz

Yes and no. ZEQ2-Lite was not built with the intention of ever being used as the basis for ZEQ2, as ZEQ2 was intended to be built in the Zios engine, which would render any work done on ZEQ2-Lite in IO Quake semi-moot. ZEQ2-Lite was also focused on much different goals than ZEQ2 had as well, so they were never intended to be the same or "based" off of each other in the kind of sense you think they were.



I know that already. But both are:

- Aiming perfect representation/faithfulness to a defined theme, on every aspects.

- Aiming knowledge transmission.

- Not aiming becoming a game (it is even said in the main page).

But yes, planning everything out from the very beginning is exactly what I was saying needs to be done.



Quite hard task. You never know what tomorrow will be made of, so you might change your plans one day.. But I agree that the most can and should be thought straight at the beginning.


To expand upon my above response, since I had to cut it short to run to work, I wanted to explain exactly what the differences are in the goals between ZEQ2 and ZEQ2-Lite so as to avoid any confusion in what I was trying to say.

ZEQ2 was intended to be a fully interactive simulation of the Dragonball Z world as it was presented in the anime, put together in such a way as to be as close to 100% accurate to the series as possible. To quote a post from Brad on the ZEQ2 forums(His last post on the first page):
[quote="Zeth"]If you are making a comparison to any game in existence, you already misunderstand the design goals of ZEQ2. It's not "like" some game or "has a feature" like another game. The design premise for ZEQ2 is an unwavering, unbiased representation of the Dragon Ball Z series in it's rawest, most accurate form with absolutely zero forms of outside series input or personal creative efforts. The only form of creativity on ANY part is from the systems that drive the mechanics and overall accuracies; however, even these refined to mimic the original source as much as possible.
Contrary to complaints about things such as gooey insides, if it was in the Anime, it was intended to be included in ZEQ2.

Then they worked on, rushed really, to finish up some of the initial framework for ZEQ2-Lite using the IO Quake build they had from 2005, to quote the recap on the front page that everyone's probably been skipping past to go straight to the forums:



They have rushed the quick synthesis of the old ZEQ2(ioQ3) to make it public. But ZEQ2-Lite in itself, still has some of the goals of it's parent even if it is less hardcore, less thorough than this last, otherwise it would just be lacking in identifiable function. ZEQ2-Lite was released to not let the old iteration go to waste, this reason between some others.

The parallel I did with both projects and the concepts isn't wrong so far.

If you look closely at that second to last sentence for the recap, it uses the word "game". ZEQ2-Lite is not currently a game at present, true. But the goal was to make it open source so that the work that had been done wouldn't go to waste, as well as for the community to work together to make it into a game, albeit not in the traditional sense that every Atari game does, and eventually start helping out with ZEQ2 itself. The problem is, no one did, which is why we are where we're at now.



The recap doesn't define this "game" thing as a goal, all that story is a consequence of the misunderstanding community's wish and the lack of importance they gave to the original concepts.

Also read the last sentence of the recap. Smile

Define "base". Are you referring to ZEQ2-Lite, or the third-party Unity/UE4 projects?



I was of course referring to a possible more recent iteration of ZEQ2-Lite. But once this one released, some things should be done that weren't on the actual iteration. It just hadn't much importance given to it, so, the project globally feel the consequences now.. The communication problem has been pretty much discussed already, even if no big solutions have been shared yet.

Not sure what you mean here exactly, are you referring to all the addons that are always being made for ZEQ2-Lite even though the project as a whole is incomplete? Not much we can do about that, we can't exactly hold guns to people's heads and demand they stop making Goku Super Saiyan 84 type addons and instead start programming a grappling system...

Or are you referring to moving focus to the third party projects? Because if that's the case, then it's not exactly that different from what Brad wanted us to do when he posted the last news update on the front page of the site. The problem is, as I've said, everyone's all hoarding their creations at present and keeping them to themselves, so no one's sharing much of anything right now. But again, I hope to change that with ZOPU soonish...



Addons can be updated depending on the base's edits. But certain things cannot or would be too much of a pain to do, that's why it is more preferable to have this stable and finished base before the mountains of contents. And I said preferable, which pretty much means ideally.

If you can remove anything at all, even just a few unnecessary files, that alone would be worthwhile for improving the readability and efficiency of the engine. After all, there's no point compiling all the junk in if it's not actually going to be used, it's just wasted data space then.

I'd do some of it myself, but I'm honestly too visual of a person to work very efficiently with actual code... I understand the basic programming concepts, but the syntax and whatnot just hurt my brain after a while, so digging through to pull that stuff all out would be a veritable nightmare for someone like me...



The problem is, what revision has to be cleaned/worked on ? I have personally started from a recent code update (edited 1536) source + a custom build (mixed contents slightly to highly edited).

Shenku RiO Incarnate View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Wednesday, September 09, 2015

Wh1t34Gl3(SAS) wrote : I was talking about the main development, I don't mind unoficial spin-offs. :*laughing out loud*:


That's kind of my whole point. They're unofficial, and they can't/won't be contributed back to the SVN, but people could still make them and release them elsewhere anyways. As silly as my Dora The Explorer example was, my point stands that anyone can turn ZEQ2-Lite into a finished game if that's what they want to do, unofficially.



I don't know what hosts the sites etc... But I doubt it would be enough for this use in plus of what charges it actually has.


The hosting cost for the server that this site uses is fairly hefty as a lump sum, but that's because the service plan that's used is on a bi-yearly billing setup, meaning every two years we have to pay up the hosting costs. Breaking down that cost to something like what it equates to per month, it actually ends up being fairly cheap.

From the fund raising thread, MDave says that the web host that this site uses is Dreamhost, and the current cost is about $215 every 2 years. Breaking that down, it works out to be equivalent to around $9 monthly, which really is pretty reasonable.



Is there something going on that I am not aware of ? Razz


Officially? Not yet that I am aware of. Unofficially? Not yet that I am aware of. Officially-unofficial? *ponders*.... No....? Again, don't want to say specifics at this time, because my crystal ball has a very shoddy history of accurate fortune telling...



I know that already. But both are:

- Aiming perfect representation/faithfulness to a defined theme, on every aspects.

- Aiming knowledge transmission.

- Not aiming becoming a game (it is even said in the main page).



Not quite. ZEQ2 was aiming for perfect representation and emulation of the world, ZEQ2-Lite was a very much watered down version of that. If you'll notice, a lot of stuff that was released with ZEQ2-Lite or since has been added, doesn't 100% conform to the anime in the strictest sense. It's still trying to emulate the series, yes, but it's a much looser and more relaxed emulation effort, where as ZEQ2 was suppose to be so much more hard core that only a handful of the addon makers on this site would have been considered close to the quality level that it strived for (and I'm just barely hitting that mark myself because I've been doing too much "jack of all trades" stuff, and not focusing enough on one specific skill to be refined enough to surpass that level...).

Think of it like this. ZEQ2 is a Corvette, and ZEQ2-Lite is a scooter. Even though they're both motorized vehicles, they're hardly the same thing, or intended for the same purposes, but they can both still do very similar tasks, one just has much better performance than the other(In ZEQ2's case, more accurate development goals).

Anyways, the goals of ZEQ2 and ZEQ2-Lite might seem very similar, but they really aren't quite the same.



Quite hard task. You never know what tomorrow will be made of, so you might change your plans one day.. But I agree that the most can and should be thought straight at the beginning.


The only thing that makes it hard, is the fact that there's no central team to collaborate and have these types of discussions and brainstorming sessions to actually hash out all the details.

What makes it simpler though, is that the goal of ZEQ2 and ZEQ2-Lite is very directly known already. If it was in the series, it needs to be added to the project. And that pretty much sums up both project's goals right there, without the need for a discussion on "what", the only thing left unanswered is "how".



They have rushed the quick synthesis of the old ZEQ2(ioQ3) to make it public. But ZEQ2-Lite in itself, still has some of the goals of it's parent even if it is less hardcore, less thorough than this last, otherwise it would just be lacking in identifiable function. ZEQ2-Lite was released to not let the old iteration go to waste, this reason between some others.

The parallel I did with both projects and the concepts isn't wrong so far.


Even still, see my above analogy about comparing a Corvette to a scooter. They are similar, but distinctly different no matter how you try to look at them. Otherwise, Brad wouldn't be trying so hard all the time to correct people about that difference when they say ZEQ2 when they're actually talking about ZEQ2-Lite.


The recap doesn't define this "game" thing as a goal, all that story is a consequence of the misunderstanding community's wish and the lack of importance they gave to the original concepts.


But it implies that it was at one point part of the end goal. The distinction about ZEQ2-Lite not being a game was always predicated on the fact that it's still not finished, which is WHY there are no goals or meaning or what have you in regards to "playing" right now.


Also read the last sentence of the recap. Smile


I did read it. You need to re-read it in the context of the previous sentence, the one I quoted.

"This is something that we'd like to change." is very obviously talking about the lack of programmatic changes and fixes. Basically, it was pointing out how most of the community has been virtually ignoring the code side of development, and focusing almost entirely on Character, Map, Attack, and Effects addons, or in other words, everyone was focusing on the art side, but there are too few people actually working on the mechanics side, which is the whole reason development on ZEQ2-Lite stalled out.

And in the rest of the post, it's basically an attempt to recruit people in for the re-launch of the ZEQ2 project in a newer engine (Unity in this case), and put together an actual collaborative team again, with actual development goals and assigned tasks, which is something that ZEQ2-Lite sorely lacks. Of course, the bait was thrown out into the water, but no fish actually bit for some reason. Or at least, there was no one who could commit in the way that Brad was hoping for, which is once again why nothing is happening on that front.



I was of course referring to a possible more recent iteration of ZEQ2-Lite. But once this one released, some things should be done that weren't on the actual iteration. It just hadn't much importance given to it, so, the project globally feel the consequences now.. The communication problem has been pretty much discussed already, even if no big solutions have been shared yet.


Here's the thing, ZEQ2-Lite, as great as it is as a project in itself, is somewhat outdated, really complicated to work on (specifically in the code), and still utilizes what's basically an obsolete model format (.MD3 files).

As much as I'd like to see it fixed up more, or maybe the Skeletal support added in that I think MDave was once working on(many years ago, before that effort seemed to be sorta abandoned), there's only so much that we can do with this engine.

Right now, it's still a bloated mess. Removing the extraneous code will help a little, but it won't change the fact that the engine does still have its limits. I mean honestly, it's using tech that's over 10 years old. Actually, probably closer to 15, considering the age of Quake 3 in general...

So basically the engine can only be improved so far without going back and completely gutting out core engine code to rebuild it from scratch, which is more work than about 90% of the community is willing to do.


Addons can be updated depending on the base's edits. But certain things cannot or would be too much of a pain to do, that's why it is more preferable to have this stable and finished base before the mountains of contents. And I said preferable, which pretty much means ideally.


Except that that ship has already sailed, it's a little late to call them back to port now...

But yeah, it would probably have been better to have more people working on getting the engine finished first, as opposed to putting a dress on the skeleton, going back to my "making a person" analogy from my last post...



The problem is, what revision has to be cleaned/worked on ? I have personally started from a recent code update (edited 1536) source + a custom build (mixed contents slightly to highly edited).



If you're going to make any changes to the code, I would suggest that you stop working on the earlier versions because working backwards will make things more convoluted and confusing going forwards for other people who may come along later and wonder why there's two different branches with the same revision numbers(Which would eventually happen). So if you want to work on this, I suggest you go to the latest developmental revision, and start work from there.

Eagle The Purpose View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Thursday, September 10, 2015

That's kind of my whole point. They're unofficial, and they can't/won't be contributed back to the SVN, but people could still make them and release them elsewhere anyways. As silly as my Dora The Explorer example was, my point stands that anyone can turn ZEQ2-Lite into a finished game if that's what they want to do, unofficially.



As long as it doesn't disturb the main project and it's development, they can do whatever the love they want I believe, that's how it's been since 2009 if I'm not mistaken. And hey, the revolution pack was made to be "played", right ? This situation already happened, and not only once..

The hosting cost for the server that this site uses is fairly hefty as a lump sum, but that's because the service plan that's used is on a bi-yearly billing setup, meaning every two years we have to pay up the hosting costs. Breaking down that cost to something like what it equates to per month, it actually ends up being fairly cheap.

From the fund raising thread, MDave says that the web host that this site uses is XXXX, and the current cost is about $215 every 2 years. Breaking that down, it works out to be equivalent to around $9 monthly, which really is pretty reasonable.



You maybe shouldn't tell the name of the hoster publicly... The hosting domain isn't very safe usually.. Also, will it handle multiple sites, multiple FTPs/SVNs, forums, servers, master servers at the same time ? Seems a bit too much to me. If it can, then it's perfect. There's only the approval of the project's leaders as a final obstacle. (in the case this concept is adopted of course)

Officially? Not yet that I am aware of. Unofficially? Not yet that I am aware of. Officially-unofficial? *ponders*.... No....? Again, don't want to say specifics at this time, because my crystal ball has a very shoddy history of accurate fortune telling...



YooooOOUUU gummy bear! You know something!! Mad

Not quite. ZEQ2 was aiming for perfect representation and emulation of the world, ZEQ2-Lite was a very much watered down version of that. If you'll notice, a lot of stuff that was released with ZEQ2-Lite or since has been added, doesn't 100% conform to the anime in the strictest sense. It's still trying to emulate the series, yes, but it's a much looser and more relaxed emulation effort, where as ZEQ2 was suppose to be so much more hard core that only a handful of the addon makers on this site would have been considered close to the quality level that it strived for (and I'm just barely hitting that mark myself because I've been doing too much "jack of all trades" stuff, and not focusing enough on one specific skill to be refined enough to surpass that level...).

Think of it like this. ZEQ2 is a Corvette, and ZEQ2-Lite is a scooter. Even though they're both motorized vehicles, they're hardly the same thing, or intended for the same purposes, but they can both still do very similar tasks, one just has much better performance than the other(In ZEQ2's case, more accurate development goals).

Anyways, the goals of ZEQ2 and ZEQ2-Lite might seem very similar, but they really aren't quite the same.



Pretty much what I said, only the level of accuracy, faithfulness and knowledge is different. But the rest stays the same (officially).

The only thing that makes it hard, is the fact that there's no central team to collaborate and have these types of discussions and brainstorming sessions to actually hash out all the details.



Schizophrenia helps. (bad joke: done)

More seriously, it depends already on how you see the manga/anime yourself, if you know it from A to Z, then you will have less problems. After.. Yes, brainstorming and group work is still better.

But, to have this kind of discussions with peoples, it should be mentioned/introduced already. The communication, again...

What makes it simpler though, is that the goal of ZEQ2 and ZEQ2-Lite is very directly known already. If it was in the series, it needs to be added to the project. And that pretty much sums up both project's goals right there, without the need for a discussion on "what", the only thing left unanswered is "how".



Peoples tend to forget it. They also don't go in the little details, they don't analyze. In fact, nothing is clear at all. And I have to admit that a consequent period of time passed before I understood something as well...

Even still, see my above analogy about comparing a Corvette to a scooter. They are similar, but distinctly different no matter how you try to look at them. Otherwise, Brad wouldn't be trying so hard all the time to correct people about that difference when they say ZEQ2 when they're actually talking about ZEQ2-Lite.



He recently explained the difference once more, and if I got his analogy right, ZEQ2-Lite is kind of a test. It determines who has the qualities and skill required to participate to the demanding ZEQ2 project. But I find this a bit sad for ZEQ2-Lite, which has still some importance to a lot of us.

But it implies that it was at one point part of the end goal. The distinction about ZEQ2-Lite not being a game was always predicated on the fact that it's still not finished, which is WHY there are no goals or meaning or what have you in regards to "playing" right now.



Does it really have an end goal ? Does "end goal" wraps official and unofficial concepts ? I remember that Brad said "it will continue on it's own". To me, it sounds like a never ending road with a very probable end.

And considering few parameters, I think going into ZEQ2's concepts first is better for the development side. Nothing goes against a possible "game" release, I was even for it before. But I think it would be better this way, at least for now.

I did read it. You need to re-read it in the context of the previous sentence, the one I quoted.

"This is something that we'd like to change." is very obviously talking about the lack of programmatic changes and fixes. Basically, it was pointing out how most of the community has been virtually ignoring the code side of development, and focusing almost entirely on Character, Map, Attack, and Effects addons, or in other words, everyone was focusing on the art side, but there are too few people actually working on the mechanics side, which is the whole reason development on ZEQ2-Lite stalled out.

And in the rest of the post, it's basically an attempt to recruit people in for the re-launch of the ZEQ2 project in a newer engine (Unity in this case), and put together an actual collaborative team again, with actual development goals and assigned tasks, which is something that ZEQ2-Lite sorely lacks. Of course, the bait was thrown out into the water, but no fish actually bit for some reason. Or at least, there was no one who could commit in the way that Brad was hoping for, which is once again why nothing is happening on that front.



True, but I don't think it only applies to that. As for the development, the mechanics aren't doing everything, outside that, there WAS a progress in the other domains through these last years.

But it's undeniable that without coders, the development is handicapped..

Regarding ZEQ2(Unity), considering the requirements, it will be hard actually to get some members in the team. ZEQ2-Lite's active members aren't ready and/or interested in this. And same outside (even if the second point is more coming out than the first one).

That's one more reason to do something on ZEQ2-Lite. Laughing


Here's the thing, ZEQ2-Lite, as great as it is as a project in itself, is somewhat outdated, really complicated to work on (specifically in the code), and still utilizes what's basically an obsolete model format (.MD3 files).

As much as I'd like to see it fixed up more, or maybe the Skeletal support added in that I think MDave was once working on(many years ago, before that effort seemed to be sorta abandoned), there's only so much that we can do with this engine.

Right now, it's still a bloated mess. Removing the extraneous code will help a little, but it won't change the fact that the engine does still have its limits. I mean honestly, it's using tech that's over 10 years old. Actually, probably closer to 15, considering the age of Quake 3 in general...

So basically the engine can only be improved so far without going back and completely gutting out core engine code to rebuild it from scratch, which is more work than about 90% of the community is willing to do.



The md4/mdr/Zmesh (supporting skeletal if I recall) file format was worked on on ZEQ2(/-Lite), it is usable (cf: chaozu), but not completely working, since it is not finished. I would like to have this as well, but my knowledge in both domains is astronomically below the requirements to finish the implementation.

As for the rest, I don't really know about the newer techniques of development etc... But it is possible to do a lot of things already on quake 3 (hardly, I know.. But it's kind of fascinating though), and since we are talking about Dragon Ball, it doesn't require too much, as it would with ultra HD games with awesum effects/mechanics/physics etc.......

Except that that ship has already sailed, it's a little late to call them back to port now...



What is done is done, it has at least helped, even if only slightly.

If you're going to make any changes to the code, I would suggest that you stop working on the earlier versions because working backwards will make things more convoluted and confusing going forwards for other people who may come along later and wonder why there's two different branches with the same revision numbers(Which would eventually happen). So if you want to work on this, I suggest you go to the latest developmental revision, and start work from there.



To have tested/tried to work on both stable 1536 and unstable 1916, I came to the conclusion that it would be better (on some points) to start from the stable 1536. After, nothing prevents from importing later systems into it, but not all of them are good...

I have a more recent (but not the latest) version of the code update, which is a good base to start on (various fixes/imports from later revisions + some other adds).

But, at first, I'm trying to clean the code and reactivate/edits some disabled systems.

Shenku RiO Incarnate View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Thursday, September 10, 2015

[quote="Wh1t34Gl3(SAS)"
As long as it doesn't disturb the main project and it's development, they can do whatever the love they want I believe, that's how it's been since 2009 if I'm not mistaken. And hey, the revolution pack was made to be "played", right ? This situation already happened, and not only once..
[/quote]
You're right, pretty much every addon pack was an attempt to turn it into a game. The problem is, they were all just character/map addons, hardly any of them actually dove into the code.

What I'm saying though, is that people can fiddle with the code too if they want, they just aren't.


You maybe shouldn't tell the name of the hoster publicly... The hosting domain isn't very safe usually.. Also, will it handle multiple sites, multiple FTPs/SVNs, forums, servers, master servers at the same time ? Seems a bit too much to me. If it can, then it's perfect. There's only the approval of the project's leaders as a final obstacle. (in the case this concept is adopted of course)


Saying who the host of the website is, is not necessarily going to make the site any more vulnerable than any other website on the internet.

But yes, most hosting services very easily support multiple websites from the same service (I'm hosting 2 different domains[spritehaven.com and theblackdawnwars.com], and 2 or 3 subdomains on my own server through Godaddy), and as far as I'm aware, this sites service does support things like multiple SVNs at least. Multiple forums are also possible, they just get installed into separate directories(folders).

Although I'm not sure on the requirements for an IO Quake 3 Master Server, which specific hosting plan this site uses, and whether or not it's hosting plan is even compatible with the hosting requirements of an IO Quake 3 Master Server to begin with.


YooooOOUUU gummy bear! You know something!! Mad


No more than you know... Rolling Eyes


Pretty much what I said, only the level of accuracy, faithfulness and knowledge is different. But the rest stays the same (officially).


Basically, but that difference in the level of accuracy goal is huge when comparing the two, even if it doesn't seem like it.


Schizophrenia helps. (bad joke: done)


I had Schizophrenia once, but we're better now...


More seriously, it depends already on how you see the manga/anime yourself, if you know it from A to Z, then you will have less problems. After.. Yes, brainstorming and group work is still better.

But, to have this kind of discussions with peoples, it should be mentioned/introduced already. The communication, again...


Well, we're having these discussions now, aren't we? It's not a lot yet, but it's a start.

[/quote]
Peoples tend to forget it. They also don't go in the little details, they don't analyze. In fact, nothing is clear at all. And I have to admit that a consequent period of time passed before I understood something as well...
[/quote]
And that's why we give friendly reminders, and try to educate people when they come along instead of shooing them away. Who knows what they may have to offer down the road.

When I first came here, I honestly thought that it was a game myself. So I "played" it a bunch, until eventually I started wondering how hard it would be to make stuff for it, and started working on my own addons. My first horrid attempts were pretty awful re-skins of Goku that would make you cry from laughing so hard at how horrible they were, because at the time, I couldn't model very well, nor could I make decent textures(I still have some trouble with textures now, as a matter of fact...). And yet, now I'm an active member of the community, and have made many contributions toward ZEQ2-Lite that are hardly laughable by comparison.... Suffice to say, it's not about where someone starts at in the community, it's about what they're striving towards. Point is, anyone can come here in ignorance and leave with enlightenment.


He recently explained the difference once more, and if I got his analogy right, ZEQ2-Lite is kind of a test. It determines who has the qualities and skill required to participate to the demanding ZEQ2 project. But I find this a bit sad for ZEQ2-Lite, which has still some importance to a lot of us.


ZEQ2-Lite is a lot of things, but simple was never one of them, hence so much confusion about what it is... So yeah, in some ways, it was intended to be a training and learning tool to teach people about game development so that they might one day be recruited in for ZEQ2 or other projects once they started hitting a certain skill and quality level with their creations. Even still, ZEQ2-Lite's development doesn't need to end just because people end up working on something else. The whole point of it being open source was to facilitate the fact that development could conceivable continue indefinitely so long as someone in the world is tinkering with it, or finds it in the future.


Does it really have an end goal ? Does "end goal" wraps official and unofficial concepts ? I remember that Brad said "it will continue on it's own". To me, it sounds like a never ending road with a very probable end.


"End goal" doesn't necessarily mean the end of development. Look at most modern games, DLC gets released all the time now for both PC and console games. MMOs get entire expansion packs. Heck, some games get free updates just because the developers wanted to. Just because ZEQ2-Lite might some day achieve the status of being a "game", doesn't mean that all development would have to stop on it. New stuff can always be added, adjusted, fixed, exc.

And considering few parameters, I think going into ZEQ2's concepts first is better for the development side. Nothing goes against a possible "game" release, I was even for it before. But I think it would be better this way, at least for now.


One cannot exist without the other. If you want to some day make it a game, you have to consider that when you're considering the concepts behind it. On average, I want to say that roughly at least 60-90% of all plans for any AAA game made by its development team are figured out before the first model is made or the first line of code written. Write the game design document first, then everyone can reference it later during development and know exactly what does and does not need to be made.


True, but I don't think it only applies to that. As for the development, the mechanics aren't doing everything, outside that, there WAS a progress in the other domains through these last years.

But it's undeniable that without coders, the development is handicapped..


Pretty much, yeah... Programmers are the lifeblood of any game, and we've been drained dry by the vampires of artists who came here instead...

Regarding ZEQ2(Unity), considering the requirements, it will be hard actually to get some members in the team. ZEQ2-Lite's active members aren't ready and/or interested in this. And same outside (even if the second point is more coming out than the first one).

That's one more reason to do something on ZEQ2-Lite. :*laughing out loud*:


The problem has always largely been of getting and holding peoples' interest, because since this is all a non-profit hobby for many, they aren't as driven to work on it. I'm only as focused on my games as I am, because I'm trying to get to that point where I can stop just wasting my time with it, and actually make money off of it. But, we can't just use money to bribe people to work on things here, because that would raise all kinds of legal and funding issues... So, the incentives to make people interested are largely off of either learning, or just doing something they love for fun...


The md4/mdr/Zmesh (supporting skeletal if I recall) file format was worked on on ZEQ2(/-Lite), it is usable (cf: chaozu), but not completely working, since it is not finished. I would like to have this as well, but my knowledge in both domains is astronomically below the requirements to finish the implementation.


Like I said, it was practically abandoned. I loved the idea, but unless its finished, and there's documentation on how to do it, it's kind of just sitting there for now and doing nothing...

As for the rest, I don't really know about the newer techniques of development etc... But it is possible to do a lot of things already on quake 3 (hardly, I know.. But it's kind of fascinating though), and since we are talking about Dragon Ball, it doesn't require too much, as it would with ultra HD games with awesum effects/mechanics/physics etc.......


For the most part, the newer engine's only advantage is better support of multi-core CPUs and the use of newer real time rendering tecniques. IO Quake 3 uses Open GL still, I believe, where as UE4 or Unity can use that, AND Direct X 11(12 coming on UE4 soon, I think), meaning they're capable of doing things that IO Quake 3 might have a melt down trying to replicate.

It's true that we can do a lot with IO Quake 3 still, but its still showing its age...


To have tested/tried to work on both stable 1536 and unstable 1916, I came to the conclusion that it would be better (on some points) to start from the stable 1536. After, nothing prevents from importing later systems into it, but not all of them are good...

I have a more recent (but not the latest) version of the code update, which is a good base to start on (various fixes/imports from later revisions + some other adds).

But, at first, I'm trying to clean the code and reactivate/edits some disabled systems.


Yeah, a lot of the code changes in the later revisions were valiant attempts to start working on certain systems, but were either left gutted and incomplete, or completely broken... But, the systems in place in the stable revision were never intended to be final to begin with, many were just placeholders until a better system could be designed. Most notable, the overly simplified speed mêlée system.

Eagle The Purpose View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Saturday, September 12, 2015

You're right, pretty much every addon pack was an attempt to turn it into a game. The problem is, they were all just character/map addons, hardly any of them actually dove into the code.

What I'm saying though, is that people can fiddle with the code too if they want, they just aren't.



You will say.. In the actual situation, nobody would want to work on it. Laughing

Saying who the host of the website is, is not necessarily going to make the site any more vulnerable than any other website on the internet.



You know, it can go really quickly. Depending on the host. Confused

But yes, most hosting services very easily support multiple websites from the same service (I'm hosting 2 different domains[spritehaven.com and theblackdawnwars.com], and 2 or 3 subdomains on my own server through Godaddy), and as far as I'm aware, this sites service does support things like multiple SVNs at least. Multiple forums are also possible, they just get installed into separate directories(folders).

Although I'm not sure on the requirements for an IO Quake 3 Master Server, which specific hosting plan this site uses, and whether or not it's hosting plan is even compatible with the hosting requirements of an IO Quake 3 Master Server to begin with.



Why not asking ? BRAAAAAD, DAAAAAVE! We NEED some info, otherwise, some other baby kitty cats will be brutally murdered tonight. :'(

No, seriously, if one of you is reading this, can we possibly have some info about the formula and what is still possible to do ?

No more than you know... Rolling Eyes





Basically, but that difference in the level of accuracy goal is huge when comparing the two, even if it doesn't seem like it.



Yeah, I could feel it when I saw some things related to the project (the old ZEQ2). Impressive, but seems stressful as well, don't know why...

I had Schizophrenia once, but we're better now...



Classics. :smirk:

Well, we're having these discussions now, aren't we? It's not a lot yet, but it's a start.



We are mostly talking about problems (which we already know) than solutions in fact. It isn't that much advancing at the end.

When I first came here, I honestly thought that it was a game myself.



WHO DIDN'T ? :*rolling on floor laughing*:

So I "played" it a bunch, until eventually I started wondering how hard it would be to make stuff for it, and started working on my own addons. My first horrid attempts were pretty awful re-skins of Goku that would make you cry from laughing so hard at how horrible they were, because at the time, I couldn't model very well, nor could I make decent textures(I still have some trouble with textures now, as a matter of fact...).



I personally started modding ZEQ2-Lite because there wasn't Gogeta Super Saiyan 4 and 5 in revo gold, so I merged them with Gogeta Super Saiyan that was already in it. Only had a bad texture applied to the boots, the rest was fine. After, since it was so easy to edit, I wanted to "make my own characters". But most ideas were from others (VegettoNT5, GogetaNT5, VegetaNT4G), however they have finally reached a decent quality (at least for the first two).

As for my skills, I am still at the basics of modeling, I can make decent animations (the ones I did with misfit are fluid and don't present horrible artifacts) and can barely edit textures. I can optimize the whole thing to a good level (configuration included) and tinker with the sounds and particles domains (but just a bit). As for my coding skills, still learning, but I did few changes in the overall already, my biggest being the footsteps reactivation.

Yep, not a lot in two years...

But finally, I think differently and still aim the best, not just for me.

ZEQ2-Lite is a lot of things, but simple was never one of them, hence so much confusion about what it is... So yeah, in some ways, it was intended to be a training and learning tool to teach people about game development so that they might one day be recruited in for ZEQ2 or other projects once they started hitting a certain skill and quality level with their creations. Even still, ZEQ2-Lite's development doesn't need to end just because people end up working on something else. The whole point of it being open source was to facilitate the fact that development could conceivable continue indefinitely so long as someone in the world is tinkering with it, or finds it in the future.



We went on that point with Mima on another thread, we said pretty much the same.

BUT! The thing to focus on is the goal(s) we fixed to ourselves. Especially if the said goal is to see this "simulation" completed in plus of the advantages it provides. Smile

"End goal" doesn't necessarily mean the end of development. Look at most modern games, DLC gets released all the time now for both PC and console games. MMOs get entire expansion packs. Heck, some games get free updates just because the developers wanted to. Just because ZEQ2-Lite might some day achieve the status of being a "game", doesn't mean that all development would have to stop on it. New stuff can always be added, adjusted, fixed, exc.



Except that ZEQ2-Lite isn't a game, and it WILL end once it is fully completed. There is an end, but it needs to be defined. I personally define it at when it will be perfectly faithful to Dragon Ball/z/gt/everything, in all the aspects, when all the concepts are done!

After, if the plans are to continue, I guess it will move on another theme (manga or not).

One cannot exist without the other. If you want to some day make it a game, you have to consider that when you're considering the concepts behind it. On average, I want to say that roughly at least 60-90% of all plans for any AAA game made by its development team are figured out before the first model is made or the first line of code written. Write the game design document first, then everyone can reference it later during development and know exactly what does and does not need to be made.



It fortunately isn't possible here. Even on ZEQ2 (except if the actual members/leaders have already planned everything).

The problem has always largely been of getting and holding peoples' interest, because since this is all a non-profit hobby for many, they aren't as driven to work on it. I'm only as focused on my games as I am, because I'm trying to get to that point where I can stop just wasting my time with it, and actually make money off of it. But, we can't just use money to bribe people to work on things here, because that would raise all kinds of legal and funding issues... So, the incentives to make people interested are largely off of either learning, or just doing something they love for fun...



For ZEQ2-Lite, something can be done to increase the possibilities to interest people, but ZEQ2 is another thing... A real implication is needed, it's not just a hobby.

Like I said, it was practically abandoned. I loved the idea, but unless its finished, and there's documentation on how to do it, it's kind of just sitting there for now and doing nothing...



Where ? In the SVN ? Gotta check those, but I doubt I will understand anything.

For the most part, the newer engine's only advantage is better support of multi-core CPUs and the use of newer real time rendering tecniques.



Everything is easier as well, and there's a great community. (taking unity as example)

Yeah, a lot of the code changes in the later revisions were valiant attempts to start working on certain systems, but were either left gutted and incomplete, or completely broken... But, the systems in place in the stable revision were never intended to be final to begin with, many were just placeholders until a better system could be designed. Most notable, the overly simplified speed mêlée system



I never said that I will keep the actual systems (or at least some of them). I plan on changing various things. The last revisions just didn't convince me and it would be a pain to edit...

SuperSayianSomethinGohan View user's profile Send private message

Reply with quote Thursday, September 24, 2015

hehe


fukkatsu no shia


leave the servers dead (for an indefinite amount of time at the least (oxymoron))

we got what we needed

I am not stating that we should abandon them forever, but that we should for a while, until someone gets it together.

More imperatively, how did this come to be?

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