ZEQ2 : Interactive Anime Experience

Friday, March 03, 2006

That looks great. The only detail I think it could use is fixing the back of Vegeta's tail, when you look at it in the saiya-jin saga you can clearly see where it comes out at and wraps back over, from what I've seen of the back of that model it it's just a ring around him and makes it look more like he's wearing a brown belt.

So I guess there are going to be three versions of Vegeta? I remember it being said on the old forum that Majin Vegeta would likely be a different character than the regular one(still thinking of making it like that or is that another thing that's been replaced by new ideas(like making babidi playable and only he can make you MV )?), so I'm guessing this one also will, and he'll be different in that his detection is done by scouter and transforms into ozaru.

Friday, March 03, 2006

the tail will be fixed in the future.
about the different versions.. just wait
but yeah, there will be more then this one ofcourse

Friday, March 03, 2006

when you look at it in the saiya-jin saga you can clearly see where it comes out at and wraps back over

Actually. Thats how the manga handles it, NOT the series. We are exclusively series based. Consistently, the tail wraps in a full rounded way in the series.

rahrah.jpg

Saturday, March 04, 2006

Zeth wrote : Actually. Thats how the manga handles it, NOT the series.

*laughing out loud* That is how the series handles it, too...

Just watch the Goku and Vegeta fight and you'll see plenty of times it's drawn about how it should be.
A lot of animators were sloppy and forgot details(the fact that it was like that in the manga shows that's how it was really supposed to be in the show since that's what the design(which they'd all refer to but not all copy perfectly) was copied from, Toriyama would normaly get all the details down for the paper, but animators sometimes mess some of them up for the screen ). Like in the manga and properly done anime scenes done by the better animators, you can see saiya-jins' tails coming out from where they should, going up to and wrapping around the waist, and going back down over where it comes out. I just think the tail should be an actual tail with the right details, if it's all going to be like the show then there could be plenty of animations where the tail isn't around his waist, too.

Saturday, March 04, 2006

Just watch the Goku and Vegeta fight and you'll see plenty of times it's drawn about how it should be. A lot of animators were sloppy and forgot details(the fact that it was like that in the manga shows that's how it was really supposed to be in the show since that's what the design(which they'd all refer to but not all copy perfectly) was copied from, Toriyama would normaly get all the details down for the paper, but animators sometimes mess some of them up for the screen ).

You seemed to have missed a few key words in my statement.

Consistently, the tail wraps in a full rounded way in the series

Consistency in animation frames is a BIG focus of ZEQ2. The manga was unable to show the fluidity of combat in the DBZ world. Although the series is based on the manga, it took creativity to make the animation and overall feeling that IS the DBZ series. Thus, by result, this creates an almost unique entity. To that end the series is classified as a totally different offspring from the manga.

The manga represents still-frame details and precision of frame. The series represents fluidity, multiple camera perspectives, and at times (like this one) a quickhand analysis of aspects. Basing a game on the latter is a wise choice in comparison to the former due to the varying details and visual aids that are offered for animated sequences.

Early on the series, flukes from the manga DID exist. These were eventually squashed as the style of art progressed and less 'colored frames' directly from the manga were used.

What I am saying to you basically is this. Although the tail DOES wrap in a few frames (which I did know of already), it does not CONSISTENTLY wrap in the overall aspect of the series. The frames you speak of are caused by manga 'frame snatch flukes'. Such frame captured flukes are shown below as well. Regardless of perspective and intepretations, the series and the manga SHOULD be classified as seperate approaches to the same end(regardless of being a base from one another).

Below are actual 'manga frame snatch' techniques used infrequently EARLY in the series. Are you really sure we should use these effects rather than the ones you recall seeing more often? I guess having bright blinking yellow/black deformed microsoft stars and huge floating pieces of text next to your characters head seems cool?

!!.jpg

Vegeta is suprised.

contact.jpg

Contact with Punch.

Saturday, March 04, 2006

Zeth wrote : You seemed to have missed a few key words in my statement.

Consistently, the tail wraps in a full rounded way in the series

No, I actually didn't, which is why I was trying to point out in the last post that in the series the "wrapped tail" is far more consistant than the... "belt look"(I just call it that 'cause since there's no end and goes all the way around, it seems more like a pull-on belt than a tail ). It sounded like you were saying the "wrapped tail" only appears in "manga snatches," wile the "belt look" appears in all other non-manga-snatched scenes. My point was that it's actually just the opposite, the "wrapped tail" appears in nearly all the non-snatched scenes, wile the "belt look" is only in a few, making the "wrapped tail" far more consistant(especially in fight scenes). I'm not saying manga affects should just be used(it would look kind of funny with things like that, perhaps that would be a fun thing to try some day ), I'm just pointing out how the "wrapped tail" is the more consistant thing,as well as how it's supposed to look in the series, and I think it would be better for the model and it's potential animations(with the "belt look" how would he unwrap it considering there's no start or end? ).

And the series still uses it's own designs in all the manga snatches, too. Otherwise Piccolo(and all nameks) would constantly be switching between having five fingers and four. They ALWAYS have five in the series(even in manga snatches) despite there only being four in the manga because the design was changed for the anime(wile Vegeta's wrapped tail wasn't, the belt look was obviously a sweeet animator at work).

Saturday, March 04, 2006

I'm just pointing out how the "wrapped tail" is the more consistant thing

There are roughly 73 back keyframe scene views of vegeta among 11 episodes. Statistically 85% of these scenes use a 'belt-esque' tail approach as opposed to the 'v-fold'. This would make the belt approach FAR more consistent (and dominant). Check for yourself. I can give you exact frame numbers of the scenes if you have your collection of DBZ episodes on hand.

as well as how it's supposed to look in the series

How its supposed to look in the series differs when taking into considerations precisely each style of each saga, the relation to the manga at that point, and the raw scene/frame percentages.

I think it would be better for the model and it's potential animations(with the "belt look" how would he unwrap it considering there's no start or end? Razz ).

We never said we did not have the tail attaching properly UNDERNEATH the "belt approach". . We simply just chose this appearence over the v-shaped tuck; however. Animations thusly shall be uneffected.

And the series still uses it's own designs in all the manga snatches, too.

Your example was at fault just a bit. Note my previous comment.

EARLY on the series, flukes from the manga DID exist. These were eventually squashed as the style of art progressed and less 'colored frames' directly from the manga were used.

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We're not running some showboat shannigan here. Every action we take on every detail has has extensive study put into it in nearly every saga and drawing style. I really appreciate your input and such, but your debate doesn't fully apply to the overall 'feeling' that we are trying to mimic from the series and bring to the project.

Saturday, March 04, 2006

I guess if that model keeps the "belt look" and the tail actually is a tail and just looks like that since it folds back into itself like a ghost and the end pokes into his rear(ouch!) it could do. It just seems funny how it makes it look like there is no tail when wrapped up('twas once said, "A tail must have a begining and an end, otherwise 'tis not a tail but a belt" *laughing out loud* I remember a long time ago when I first noticed the "belt look" in one scene of the show and I thought,"What dumby drew that scene, that's no tail...").

Zeth wrote :
There are roughly 73 back keyframe scene views of vegeta among 11 episodes. Statistically 85% of these scenes use a 'belt-esque' tail approach as opposed to the 'v-fold'. This would make the belt approach FAR more consistent (and dominant). Check for yourself. I can give you exact frame numbers of the scenes if you have your collection of DBZ episodes on hand.

Wow... Earlier I finished watching nearly all the saiya-jin saga episodes where Vegeta had his tail, I made sure to pay close attention to his bum the whole time(I even played every single fast scene in slow motion just to be sure I saw it all), and only a few times(I'm sure that wasn't even ten times...) did I see the "belt look"(where you can't make out an end to his tail, thus making it seem like a belt), and every other one of the countless scenes showed the "wrapped tail"(where you can make out the end of his tail going over where it started, thus making it look like an actual tail). If 85 percent of those scenes were of the "belt look", it should've appeared like over fifty times(yet it seemed the "wrapped tail" is what appeared over fifty times). I'm just so sure the "wrapped tail" appears soooo much more than the "belt look"... Please do point out it's appearances.
Or, we could have a contest, for each screenshot of a scene with the "belt look"(where there isn't an end to his tail) you can provide, I'll provide three or more of the "wrapped tail"(where there is an end of his tail).

Monday, March 06, 2006

SSJ50000 wrote : That looks great. The only detail I think it could use is fixing the back of Vegeta's tail, when you look at it in the saiya-jin saga you can clearly see where it comes out at and wraps back over, from what I've seen of the back of that model it it's just a ring around him and makes it look more like he's wearing a brown belt.

So I guess there are going to be three versions of Vegeta? I remember it being said on the old forum that Majin Vegeta would likely be a different character than the regular one(still thinking of making it like that or is that another thing that's been replaced by new ideas(like making babidi playable and only he can make you MV )?), so I'm guessing this one also will, and he'll be different in that his detection is done by scouter and transforms into ozaru.

:O Where'd you get that picture?

Monday, March 06, 2006

Isn't the point moot either way? Who in their right mind is going to be staring at vegeta's bum all day admiring how vegeta's tail is either wrapped or slightly unwrapped around his waist?

Accuracy to the series is one thing, but do you think that these tiny, nit picky, and utterly inconsequential details are really worth your time arguing about -_-;

The tail isn't even going to be animated!

Monday, March 06, 2006

Slipstream wrote : Accuracy to the series is one thing, but do you think that these tiny, nit picky, and utterly inconsequential details are really worth your time arguing about -_-;

The tail isn't even going to be animated!

*laughing out loud* Well, lately it has been sounding like the new goal is absolute perfection. The tail could be. I'll be looking forward to seeing Ozaru Vegeta and how that transformation will be handled if it can(I'm betting on a thing like in Sparking where the character phases out wile the ozaru phases in if it's included).

:O Where'd you get that picture?

The pic of Goku and Vegeta looking at eachother? I scanned it from the manga obviously. It's in color because it's from the Kanzenban(the rereleased manga that came out a couple years ago, it's like the old manga but bigger, has some fixed details and new scenes, the chapters originaly made in color have their color again(like that pic shows), and the last chapter was changed to give the series a new ending).

Monday, March 06, 2006

SSJ50000 wrote : I'll be looking forward to seeing Ozaru Vegeta and how that transformation will be handled if it can(I'm betting on a thing like in Sparking where the character phases out wile the ozaru phases in if it's included).

Heck no. A phase in/out would be our last resort for a transformation. Sparking really did that? How intellectually lacking. If they had full control of the entire model format and everything, they could easily have done some form of morph target to make vegeta 'grow into' an Oozaru. Geez. What a cop out.

Monday, March 06, 2006

RiO wrote :

SSJ50000 wrote : I'll be looking forward to seeing Ozaru Vegeta and how that transformation will be handled if it can(I'm betting on a thing like in Sparking where the character phases out wile the ozaru phases in if it's included).

Heck no. A phase in/out would be our last resort for a transformation. Sparking really did that? How intellectually lacking. If they had full control of the entire model format and everything, they could easily have done some form of morph target to make vegeta 'grow into' an Oozaru. Geez. What a cop out.

I agree, it was very disappointing. I'm glad there is people around like you guys who actually pay attention to detail.

Monday, March 06, 2006

Eh, theres no ingame transformations in DBZ Sparking. When does this vegeta phase in/out occur? In story mode?
Everyone knows the cutscenes in that were, pretty basic